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I have some deep question about God, help!

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can you point us to unbiased references for those questions? They need necessarily to be from outside the Ba'hai faith.​
All the evidence in my bulleted list can be googled.

No, they do not need to all be from outside the Baha'i Faith although some are.
Do you ask a Jew for references to prove the truth of Christianity?
Do you ask a Christian for references to prove the truth of Islam?
Do you ask a Muslim for references to prove the truth of Judaism?

Get real. :rolleyes:

There are a lot of scholars who have written about the Baha'i Faith but almost all of them became Baha'is owing to their research because so it is so obviously the Truth from God. ;)
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The first step was to determine if Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. ... I use reason and logic in making my determinations, not emotions. Religious belief should never be about what we want; it should be about what is true.

What reason and logic? You keep on saying there is objective evidence but you haven't said what, now there's reason and logic but haven't set it out.

God sent Baha’u’llah to clear things up. You cannot blame God if people have rejected Baha’u’llah, because we all have free will.

Baha’u’llah is not a clear message from any god. Many people haven't even heard of it. Anyway it's just another person claiming to be a messenger. There cannot be and free will involved unless everybody knows that the message is genuine - clearly most people don't think it is.

Free will is a nonsense concept with respect to an omnipotent, omniscient creator, anyway.

The reason they seem to contradict each other is because they have been corrupted by man, so the original message has been changed.

So you keep claiming - where is the evidence of these original messages and how do you know they are the originals?

The message of Baha'u'llah DOES stand out, if you look at it and compare it to the false messages. ;)

In what way exactly? We are back to the same question of why a god would hide its message in one of the many religions. Does it really expect everyone on the planet to look in detail at every different religion, cult, and sect? Life's too short.

The reason God stands by is because God does not interfere with free will decisions people make.

But (if this god exists) the confusion is fundamentally its fault for not providing a clear message. Blaming people for not rooting through every religion on the planet to see if they may be wrong and some other faith may be right, is unjust and unfair.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@A94 ,

Why do innocent people suffer? Why are they punished, hurt, or killed? How is that the result of an intelligent, all knowing God, who loves everyone and everything, who only wants good things for us, who knows everything including all the pain and suffering that results?

It's is a very difficult question to answer rationally. I asked you whether or not something specific had happened to you or someone close to you because there is no rational answer to these questions that can bring comfort to someone in grief.

I have been lucky that my proximity to tragedy is limited. But a friend of mine in high-school, Stephanie Hummer, was abducted, raped, and murdered at Ohio State University during her freshman year. We weren't close, but my best friends were her best friends. She was in the band; I was in theater. I graduated from a very small high school, so we were all close. Stephanie's boyfriend was the male lead in most of the plays, and I was always hanging out with the band kids.

Just like in the school plays, I was in a supporting role. I was not directly affected by Stephanie's tragedy. But I still felt it from watching my friends lose themselves in anger, grief, and confusion before during and after the funeral.

There is no rational reason for Stephanie's tragedy. Why her? Why so young? Why did she have to suffer? Why did her parents have to experience burying their child? These questions have no rational answers.

Immediately after the funeral, my friend Eric was deeply affected. Eric was special because ( I was told ) he was not expected to live very long after he was born. I don't know the specifics. We never talked about it. The evidence of surgeries was visible on him, and he had ( has? ) trouble walking and running. But he was really funny and fun to hang out with. We were in and musicals together. He was in the band with Stephanie; they graduated the same year.

Immediately after the funeral. Eric called out, "Why?" And he repeated it over and over again. I was the first to reach out to him. We made a circle, all of us, arm and arm with Eric as he called out "Why?" to whomever or whatever was listening.

I don't remember how long we stood there in the circle. I think someone else took Eric and walked him away from the burial site.

As you continue on your path, you will likely have to experience tragedy. I hope that your experience will be in a supporting role. But if something happens to you or yours, as a Believer in Christ, it's likely people will come to with questions, seeking comfort, or even looking for an outlet for their natural anger with God. because of this, it's helpful to prepare yourself in advance for these circumstances.

This is why I asked about your situation before going too deep with my replies. If / when someone asks u "Why does God who is all love allow innocents to suffer?", I encourage you to pause, and reflect on the question. Don't answer too quickly. Sometimes, given a few moments of space and silence, the person will share a personal experience that gives context to their questions. Let the person asking the question lead the conversation. At first it's best to listen more and talk less.

If the person doesn't share anything and there's an awkward silence, this is usually good. It probably means the question is more academic and less personal. My approach, though, is to always assume it's personal until you learn otherwise.

After a few beats of silence, I start to ask questions. I usually start with, " Did something bad happen?" Or "Are you OK?"

If it turns out the question is emotional and not academic, I never answer the question, "Why?" The only accurate honest answer anyone can offer is, "I don't know".

But if the question is intellectual, not personal, or emotional, then it's probably safe to try to answer. I think it's best to answer the questions using "I" statements. "I think..." "I feel..." "I believe..." This prevents the conversation from becoming preachy. If towards the end of the conversation, the person you're talking to seems to appreciate what you are saying, that's the time to make a statement about God and / or Christ. Keep it short, simple, and broad. Things like, "God has a plan, even if we can't see it." "You can find comfort in Christ, but often, this takes time."

After the conversation has shifted from "I" statements to a statement encouraging a belief in God and Christ, I think that's a good place to stop. Don't rush it. Let your words sink in. If the person is feeling it, and wants to learn more, they will come to you another time and ask more questions.

If in the moment, the person is insistent, and keeps asking questions, I recommend repeating / restating the previous single statement you made about God and / or Christ. If you made it this far, and the person does not seem frustrated and wants to learn more, consider the conversation a great success and feel happy. You did great.

If the person doesn't take the hint, or starts pressing you for more answers, change the subject, re-direct, or somehow look for a graceful exit from the conversation.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Hello,
I have some questions, that I can't find the answers to. (I'm still learning.)
I've been studying and asking God to show me answers to these questions, and yet I'm still so lost.
Hoping someone can help me out a little.

If God is all-loving, why is there a hell, and why do people constantly die needlessly and innocently?
(E.G. People dying of horrific things like being merely beaten to death by someone they never even knew, or suddenly contracting illness? Or dying of starvation, because they're so poor and couldn't get help? There are worse innocent deaths that happen all the time, but I'd rather not make this too graphic. You get the picture.)

Also, why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?
The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.

If God is perfect and omnipotent, why does this all even exist? Can't he just wipe it all out, and destroy satan?
He is perfect, yet a mistake was made when satan was allowed to come in and interfere in the garden of eden, was it not? Should he not have interfered, then?
Also, being all-knowing, should he not have seen this all coming and prevented it?
Why would he chose to let us live in a world like this?
Also, how is having a choice between God, a perfect heaven of fluffy clouds vs. Eternal suffering and burning free will? It seems like a very forced choice to me, because who in their right mind would choose the latter?
I know the bible says in the end times God will do his final justice once and for all and make things right. However, that will still involve a lot of people going to hell, and I don't understand why he must let us suffer this way, until then.

Not looking to argue or get into anything, as religious discussions tend to go... just really, honestly looking for answers.
Hoping someone can help me understand these things.
Thank you.

Good questions.

In many ways how one understands the story of creation and Adam and Eve and its authorship (God and/or human) can be seen as a way to get at these questions. Hell, Gods role in allowing us to suffer, our role in it all all are addressed in that story.

My own view is that the authors of the Adam and Eve story saw God as a creator of an amoral reality and that He/She/It still wants us to become moral agents in that reality. It's not "fair" but that is our lot. This is what it is like to be human quite apart from whether you believe in God or not. And either way we must grow up (have an adult attitude of taking matters into our own hands) to the extent that like Abraham we might question Gods morality.
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Hello,
I have some questions, that I can't find the answers to. (I'm still learning.)
I've been studying and asking God to show me answers to these questions, and yet I'm still so lost.
Hoping someone can help me out a little.

Why is there a hell? The punishment of hells pain, torture and eternal fire is so sickening to think of. And thinking of the people who will go there, simply because they never knew God, or just happened to get caught up in something wrong, for a time and died. Eternal pain is the worst thing to experience. How is this love?
The bible states that his love is unconditional, but this seems to be a very conditional situation, to me. I'm confused.


The doctrine that God demoniacally tortures billions of immortal spirits for all eternity in a blazing sea of perpetual fire is a Satanic Antichrist mendacity that defames God.

As a God of justice and love, he would never create such a vicious and barbaric realm much less prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
All the evidence in my bulleted list can be googled.
;)

English is not my first language and perhaps my web search skills are not as exquisite as yours. The only information I could find is references TO the other faiths in Ba'hai literature - so - please post the references you claim to have found - or take your ball and go home from this discussion

By the by - there are predictions of Jesus' coming in the OT as well as other Hebrew texts and there is mention of the book of Christians (Bible) in the Qu'ran and Guru Gobind Singh mentions people in other countries worshipping other entities - so again - your claim is not entirely accurate
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
The doctrine that God demoniacally tortures billions of immortal spirits for all eternity in a blazing sea of perpetual fire is a Satanic Antichrist mendacity that defames God.

As a God of justice and love, he would never create such a vicious and barbaric realm much less prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked.

This is the reason I have trouble accepting the concept of an interactive god or one with human like characteristics eg "He is just, He punishes evildoers, He hates those who worship others" Really!!
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
@A94 ,

Why do innocent people suffer? Why are they punished, hurt, or killed? How is that the result of an intelligent, all knowing God, who loves everyone and everything, who only wants good things for us, who knows everything including all the pain and suffering that results?

It's is a very difficult question to answer rationally. I asked you whether or not something specific had happened to you or someone close to you because there is no rational answer to these questions that can bring comfort to someone in grief.

I have been lucky that my proximity to tragedy is limited. But a friend of mine in high-school, Stephanie Hummer, was abducted, raped, and murdered at Ohio State University during her freshman year. We weren't close, but my best friends were her best friends. She was in the band; I was in theater. I graduated from a very small high school, so we were all close. Stephanie's boyfriend was the male lead in most of the plays, and I was always hanging out with the band kids.

Just like in the school plays, I was in a supporting role. I was not directly affected by Stephanie's tragedy. But I still felt it from watching my friends lose themselves in anger, grief, and confusion before during and after the funeral.

There is no rational reason for Stephanie's tragedy. Why her? Why so young? Why did she have to suffer? Why did her parents have to experience burying their child? These questions have no rational answers.

Immediately after the funeral, my friend Eric was deeply affected. Eric was special because ( I was told ) he was not expected to live very long after he was born. I don't know the specifics. We never talked about it. The evidence of surgeries was visible on him, and he had ( has? ) trouble walking and running. But he was really funny and fun to hang out with. We were in and musicals together. He was in the band with Stephanie; they graduated the same year.

Immediately after the funeral. Eric called out, "Why?" And he repeated it over and over again. I was the first to reach out to him. We made a circle, all of us, arm and arm with Eric as he called out "Why?" to whomever or whatever was listening.

I don't remember how long we stood there in the circle. I think someone else took Eric and walked him away from the burial site.

As you continue on your path, you will likely have to experience tragedy. I hope that your experience will be in a supporting role. But if something happens to you or yours, as a Believer in Christ, it's likely people will come to with questions, seeking comfort, or even looking for an outlet for their natural anger with God. because of this, it's helpful to prepare yourself in advance for these circumstances.

This is why I asked about your situation before going too deep with my replies. If / when someone asks u "Why does God who is all love allow innocents to suffer?", I encourage you to pause, and reflect on the question. Don't answer too quickly. Sometimes, given a few moments of space and silence, the person will share a personal experience that gives context to their questions. Let the person asking the question lead the conversation. At first it's best to listen more and talk less.

If the person doesn't share anything and there's an awkward silence, this is usually good. It probably means the question is more academic and less personal. My approach, though, is to always assume it's personal until you learn otherwise.

After a few beats of silence, I start to ask questions. I usually start with, " Did something bad happen?" Or "Are you OK?"

If it turns out the question is emotional and not academic, I never answer the question, "Why?" The only accurate honest answer anyone can offer is, "I don't know".

But if the question is intellectual, not personal, or emotional, then it's probably safe to try to answer. I think it's best to answer the questions using "I" statements. "I think..." "I feel..." "I believe..." This prevents the conversation from becoming preachy. If towards the end of the conversation, the person you're talking to seems to appreciate what you are saying, that's the time to make a statement about God and / or Christ. Keep it short, simple, and broad. Things like, "God has a plan, even if we can't see it." "You can find comfort in Christ, but often, this takes time."

After the conversation has shifted from "I" statements to a statement encouraging a belief in God and Christ, I think that's a good place to stop. Don't rush it. Let your words sink in. If the person is feeling it, and wants to learn more, they will come to you another time and ask more questions.

If in the moment, the person is insistent, and keeps asking questions, I recommend repeating / restating the previous single statement you made about God and / or Christ. If you made it this far, and the person does not seem frustrated and wants to learn more, consider the conversation a great success and feel happy. You did great.

If the person doesn't take the hint, or starts pressing you for more answers, change the subject, re-direct, or somehow look for a graceful exit from the conversation.

Great advice
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
This is the reason I have trouble accepting the concept of an interactive god or one with human like characteristics eg "He is just, He punishes evildoers, He hates those who worship others" Really!!

It seems like you also have trouble accepting the notion that God cares for his creation because he loves us . . .
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I have trouble accepting the idea of an interactive god with human like tendencies - "to care for, to love" are human tendencies -
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
English is not my first language and perhaps my web search skills are not as exquisite as yours. The only information I could find is references TO the other faiths in Ba'hai literature - so - please post the references you claim to have found - or take your ball and go home from this discussion.
You would have to be more specific in what you want to know, there is so much.
By the by - there are predictions of Jesus' coming in the OT as well as other Hebrew texts and there is mention of the book of Christians (Bible) in the Qu'ran and Guru Gobind Singh mentions people in other countries worshipping other entities - so again - your claim is not entirely accurate
The OT predicted the coming of Jesus and he came. The OT also predicted the coming of a Messiah who would come at the time of the end. That Messiah was Baha'u'llah. Jesus never promised to come to earth a second time and He couldn't since He died on the cross.

This is a big subject but that is all I have time for right now, as I have so many posts to answer on this forum and on other forums. Maybe we can pick this up later. :)
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
The OT predicted the coming of Jesus and he came. The OT also predicted the coming of a Messiah who would come at the time of the end. That Messiah was Baha'u'llah. Jesus never promised to come to earth a second time and He couldn't since He died on the cross.

This is a big subject but that is all I have time for right now, as I have so many posts to answer on this forum and on other forums. Maybe we can pick this up later. :)

And here we are - over 2 centuries later - and the world is going strong - suffice it to say it won't end before you and i are dust - so at least for me that particular prediction goes right out the window
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I have trouble accepting the idea of an interactive god with human like tendencies - "to care for, to love" are human tendencies -
I have trouble accepting that too but I do not believe that God in any way resembles a human or that God interacts with humans in any way. I am kind of on the run right now, but below is the Baha'i view of God:

God in the Bahá'í Faith
Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

Personal God
While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I have trouble accepting that too but I do not believe that God in any way resembles a human or that God interacts with humans in any way. I am kind of on the run right now, but below is the Baha'i view of God:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

Fair enough - I can buy in to many aspects of that BUT - that idea - to my knowledge - was first floated in the Bhagwat Geeta and then built upon in other Monothestic religions - I cannot call it original - merely the repackaging of known medicinal water in a different container

For example - this is kinda along the same lines - BUT was composed in 1685 - this is the first stanza of 199

Ik ongkar satgur parsad.
JAAP
siri mukh vak patshahi 10
chapai chund. tav parsad.




God who is One, is realized by the blessings of the True Guru.

Wonderful Preceptor God is always victorious

To be recited.

Narrarated through the holy mouth of the 10th Guru.

Name and style of verse. By God’s blessings.

chakar chehun ar burn, jati ar pati nehun jeh
roop rung ar raikh, bhaikh kohoo keh na skut keh
achul mooret anbho parkas ametoje kehjai
koti eindar eindran saho sahan gnejai
tirbhavn maheep sur nar asur naiti naiti bun tirun keht
tav sarb nam kathai kavan karm nam barnt sumati. (1)


No one can give any explanation of His form, dress, outline and complexion.

God’s form is stable, He is self-illuminated, with immeasurable power.

God is the king of millions of kings, and the King of kings of gods.

God is the Lord of three worlds (land, air, water) not only gods, men and demons, but the whole creation announces that none is equal and alike God.

None can utter all of Your names. Wise men who realise Your virtues, call You in the same way.

Peace!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And here we are - over 2 centuries later - and the world is going strong - suffice it to say it won't end before you and i are dust - so at least for me that particular prediction goes right out the window
The time of the end does not refer to the end of the world, it refers to the end of the Adamic Cycle of religion. Adam was the first Prophet in that cycle and Muhammad was the last prophet in that cycle of religion, and that is why Muhammad is called the Seal of the Prophets. In 1844, the Bab ushered in an entirely new cycle of religion called the Cycle of Fulfillment (Baha'i Cycle). It was the beginning of a whole new religious cycle and a whole new age, an age that will last no less than 500,000 years.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
The time of the end does not refer to the end of the world, it refers to the end of the Adamic Cycle of religion. Adam was the first Prophet in that cycle and Muhammad was the last prophet in that cycle of religion, and that is why Muhammad is called the Seal of the Prophets. In 1844, the Bab ushered in an entirely new cycle of religion called the Cycle of Fulfillment (Baha'i Cycle). It was the beginning of a whole new religious cycle and a whole new age, an age that will last no less than 500,000 years.

There is a parallel description of the cycles - again stemming from over 50 centuries ago -

Wikipedia - Yuga cycles
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
You would have to be more specific in what you want to know, there is so much.

The OT predicted the coming of Jesus and he came. The OT also predicted the coming of a Messiah who would come at the time of the end. That Messiah was Baha'u'llah. Jesus never promised to come to earth a second time and He couldn't since He died on the cross.

This is a big subject but that is all I have time for right now, as I have so many posts to answer on this forum and on other forums. Maybe we can pick this up later. :)

If I may, what is your evidence that Bahá'u'lláh was in fact a prophet of our Creator and that the Aqdas is, like the Holy Bible, truly the Word of God?
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Would you agree that a mother - no matter in which culture or corner of the world is a prime example of love (for her child)?

According to certain estimates, some 24,000,000 people from the Soviet Union were killed during WW II. Yet, the World Health Organization informs us that an average of 56,000,000 children were murdered by their mothers every single year between 2010 and 2014.

How can you claim, then, that a mother is a prime example of love?
 
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