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I have successfully produced a surah equal to that found in the Koran
- Thread starter -Peacemaker-
- Start date
Sabour
Well-Known Member
One of the miracles is the Arabic language in the Quraan and the rhetoric.
Another miracle is the scientific miracles.
Prophecies are also among the miracles.
The challenge in the Quraan was revealed when some people claimed that Muhammad peace be upon him was a poet and that he was writing the Quraan from his own words. The arabs at that time were known for their language skills and so Allah challenged them through this verse.
Let me add that what was done in the OP doesn't make sense at all. Quraan was revealed in Arabic and the challenge in the Arabic language, The English version is not the Quraan, nor it is a translation. I would call it an interpretation. For instance take the opening chapter of the Quraan. In Arabic, it is 29 words, in any "translation" it is between 65 and 75. Nevertheless, the meaning is not completely delivered.
Those who translated the Quraan are people who there first language is not Arabic, or their first language is not English. In both cases there is a high possibility that some verses wouldn't be understood, or translated properly.
Personally, I think the supposed "scientific miracles" and the downright scandalous attempts at demonstrating them by certain Islamic apologists are an insult to the linguistic value of the Qur'an. I can personally respect the claim that the linguistic excellence of the Qur'an is miraculous even though I don't believe in miracles at all, but the "scientific miracles"? That claim just seems to me to tarnish the presentation of a great literary and poetic work.
MD
qualiaphile
Sorry OA but all the scientific miracles have been debunked. They were either found in other earlier Greek work or just wrong.
I'm sure the linguistic miracle could be debunked as well, but I am not a linguist. I have heard that the Quran limited arabic poetry rather than promote it, but this is from an ex-Muslim friend of mine. That being said, most arabic linguists do say it is a fantastic work of art, which I am sure of.
Prophecies are a tricky thing as well, since many of them are so vague that they can be applied to any scenario.
I think the Quran was an achievement, but I don't think it was one man who came up with it. It was an organization of people.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
I don't agree on that. Many muslims do put an extreme effort to make a verse say a miracle, and they excessively do this. I agree. In these are wrong. However, I do find some to be undeniable. Don't take my word anyways, but there are some scientists coming to Islam because of such things. Maurice Bucaille for instance is an example.
At least we agree on this lol.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Yes it is too often that muslims push that to far and try to make a verse say that which it doesn't. And I repeat they do it too much.
MD
qualiaphile
Well I have researched this extensively. Most scientists who study the Quranic 'miracles' don't convert. Even Keith Moore, whose books i have studied, didn't convert. Even though he publicly stated that the Quran was the word of God. Thus either he was lying and paid, or was not fully convinced. Also Maurice Bucaille was a medical doctor, which is a bit different from a scientist. And he was King Faisal's physician.
There are many websites which post rebuttals to all the scientific miracles. A lot of the embryology is flat out wrong and copied from Galen and Aristotle. Even Hamza Tzortzis who came out with the scientific miracle argument has stated that it's not a book of science, but a book of signs. He's going on the linguistic miracle angle now, which I am sure will be debunked.
The nasheeds are dope though, but I think they are a continuation of middle eastern music. A lot of ancient Persian music have a similar sound to the modern arabic nasheeds.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
I recall spending some time searching the subject itself. I can safely tell you that from where I stand, some of the rebuttals are because of mis-translations, and many others because as I said some muslims force that miracles things and exaggerate it.
I do agree its not a book of science and a book of signs. Hamza saying this doesn't mean that he backed down from saying that there are some scientific miracles in the Quraan. I think he is trying to say that don't expect the Quraan to explain theory X or theory Y. Or maybe he is telling the muslims not to push it too much
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on all.
The subject of the incomparable excellence of the Qur’an has been dealt with at five different places, i.e., in 2:24; 10:39; 11:14; 17:89 & 52:34, 35.
In two of these five verses (2:24 & 10:39) the challenge is identical, while in the remaining three verses three separate and different demands have been made from disbelievers.
At first sight this different in the form of the challenge at different places seems to be incongruous. But it is not so. In fact, these verses contain demands which stand for all time. The challenge is open even today in all the different forms mentioned in the Qur’an as it was in the time of the Holy prophet.
Taking different verses containing this challenge separately.
The greatest demand is made in:
[17:89] Say, ‘If mankind and the Jinn gathered together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even though they should help one another.’
The challenge is held out in first place to people who use occult practices that they should call hidden spirits for their help.
Here disbelievers are required to bring a book like the whole of the Qur’an with all its manifold qualities. In that verse disbelievers are not required to represent their declare it to be the equal of, or, for that matter, better than, the Qur’an. But at the time disbelievers were not required to produce the like of the Qur’an then and there; and the challenges thus implied a prophecy that they would never be able to produce the like of it, neither in the form in which it then was, nor when it became complete. Again, the challenge was not confined to the disbelievers of the Prophet’s time alone, but extended to doubters and critics of all time.
==
[11:14] Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Then bring ten Chapters like it, forged, and call on whom you can beside Allah, if you are truthful.’
The reason why the disbelievers here in 11:14 have been called upon to produce ten Surahs and not the whole of the Qur’an in all respects, but to that of only a portion of it. They had objected to some parts of it being defective. Hence they were not required to bring a complete book like the whole of the Qur’an, but only ten truth of their assertion might be tested. As for the selection of the specific number 10 for this purpose, it may be noted that since in 17:89 the whole of the Qur’an was claimed to be a perfect Book, its opponents were called upon to produce the like of the whole of it; but as in 11:14 the point was that certain portions of it were objected to, so they were asked to choose ten such portions as appeared to them to be most defective and then produce a composition even like those portions.
==
[10:39] Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call for help on all you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.’
The disbelieves were called upon to produce the like of only one Surah of the Qur’an. This is because; unlike the above-mentioned two verses the challenge in that verse was in support of a claim made by the Qur’an itself and not in refutation of any objection of the disbelievers.
In 10:38 --------
[10:38] And this Qur’an is not such as might be devised by any one except Allah. On the contrary, it fulfils that which is before it and is an exposition of the Law of God. There is no doubt about it. It is from the Lord of the worlds.-------
the Qur’an claimed to possess five very prominent qualities. In support of this claim, verse 10:39 throws out a challenge to those who deny to doubt it to produce a single Surah containing these qualities in the same perfect form in which they are contained in the 10th Surah.
==
[2:24] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful.
The disbelievers have been called upon to bring forward a single Surah like that of the Qur’an. This challenge is preceded by the claim that the Qur’an guides the righteous to the highest stages of spiritual progress. The disbelievers are told that if they are in doubt about the Divine origin of the Qur’an, then they should bring forward a single Surah that may be comparable to it in the spiritual influence it exercises over its followers.
[ Details Page 58 ++
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=58®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2 ]
==
[52:34] Do they say, ‘He has fabricated it?’ Nay, but they would not believe.
[52:35] Let them, then, bring forth an announcement like this, if they speak the truth!
It is being said that if Holy Quran is not the revelation by God, then disbelievers should produce a Book like Quran which has
= beautiful style,
= exquisite diction,
= deals thoroughly and effectively with all difficult and complex moral and spiritual issues,
= presents eternal truths,
= testifies the truths of previous Books,
= corrects the mistakes entered in previous Books by human interference,
= establishes the purity of previous Prophets,
= mentions Holy Attributes of God in abundance,
======================================================================
CHARACTERISTICS OF QURANIC TEACHINGS @
Pages 379 ++
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
The subject of the incomparable excellence of the Qur’an has been dealt with at five different places, i.e., in 2:24; 10:39; 11:14; 17:89 & 52:34, 35.
In two of these five verses (2:24 & 10:39) the challenge is identical, while in the remaining three verses three separate and different demands have been made from disbelievers.
At first sight this different in the form of the challenge at different places seems to be incongruous. But it is not so. In fact, these verses contain demands which stand for all time. The challenge is open even today in all the different forms mentioned in the Qur’an as it was in the time of the Holy prophet.
Taking different verses containing this challenge separately.
The greatest demand is made in:
[17:89] Say, ‘If mankind and the Jinn gathered together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even though they should help one another.’
The challenge is held out in first place to people who use occult practices that they should call hidden spirits for their help.
Here disbelievers are required to bring a book like the whole of the Qur’an with all its manifold qualities. In that verse disbelievers are not required to represent their declare it to be the equal of, or, for that matter, better than, the Qur’an. But at the time disbelievers were not required to produce the like of the Qur’an then and there; and the challenges thus implied a prophecy that they would never be able to produce the like of it, neither in the form in which it then was, nor when it became complete. Again, the challenge was not confined to the disbelievers of the Prophet’s time alone, but extended to doubters and critics of all time.
==
[11:14] Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Then bring ten Chapters like it, forged, and call on whom you can beside Allah, if you are truthful.’
The reason why the disbelievers here in 11:14 have been called upon to produce ten Surahs and not the whole of the Qur’an in all respects, but to that of only a portion of it. They had objected to some parts of it being defective. Hence they were not required to bring a complete book like the whole of the Qur’an, but only ten truth of their assertion might be tested. As for the selection of the specific number 10 for this purpose, it may be noted that since in 17:89 the whole of the Qur’an was claimed to be a perfect Book, its opponents were called upon to produce the like of the whole of it; but as in 11:14 the point was that certain portions of it were objected to, so they were asked to choose ten such portions as appeared to them to be most defective and then produce a composition even like those portions.
==
[10:39] Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call for help on all you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.’
The disbelieves were called upon to produce the like of only one Surah of the Qur’an. This is because; unlike the above-mentioned two verses the challenge in that verse was in support of a claim made by the Qur’an itself and not in refutation of any objection of the disbelievers.
In 10:38 --------
[10:38] And this Qur’an is not such as might be devised by any one except Allah. On the contrary, it fulfils that which is before it and is an exposition of the Law of God. There is no doubt about it. It is from the Lord of the worlds.-------
the Qur’an claimed to possess five very prominent qualities. In support of this claim, verse 10:39 throws out a challenge to those who deny to doubt it to produce a single Surah containing these qualities in the same perfect form in which they are contained in the 10th Surah.
==
[2:24] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful.
The disbelievers have been called upon to bring forward a single Surah like that of the Qur’an. This challenge is preceded by the claim that the Qur’an guides the righteous to the highest stages of spiritual progress. The disbelievers are told that if they are in doubt about the Divine origin of the Qur’an, then they should bring forward a single Surah that may be comparable to it in the spiritual influence it exercises over its followers.
[ Details Page 58 ++
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=58®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2 ]
==
[52:34] Do they say, ‘He has fabricated it?’ Nay, but they would not believe.
[52:35] Let them, then, bring forth an announcement like this, if they speak the truth!
It is being said that if Holy Quran is not the revelation by God, then disbelievers should produce a Book like Quran which has
= beautiful style,
= exquisite diction,
= deals thoroughly and effectively with all difficult and complex moral and spiritual issues,
= presents eternal truths,
= testifies the truths of previous Books,
= corrects the mistakes entered in previous Books by human interference,
= establishes the purity of previous Prophets,
= mentions Holy Attributes of God in abundance,
======================================================================
CHARACTERISTICS OF QURANIC TEACHINGS @
Pages 379 ++
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
Last edited:
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I'm sure the challenge can be undertaken In any language. Surely allah won't penalize me for not speaking Arabic. And there must be ways which we can compare my surah to the Quran even if the language is different. Go ahead and count the poetic devices that I used. You'll see I used quite a few. If you read my surah out loud you'll see there's even a bit of a cadence to it. Without trying to sound too arrogant I think the rhythm is nearly perfect. Mind you it's the rhythm you find in English not Arabic which is definately structured differently. I was so consumed with finding the perfect word to convey my ideas that I placed that priority above rhyming. That's my one regret, that it doesn't rhyme
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I just wanted to tell all our Muslim friends that it's a privilege to get to talk to you and listen to you share your culture with me. I'm starting to appreciate your holy book in a new way through this thread. There truly is beauty to be found in the Koran
uncung
Member
Quran has never mentioned sword and arrows. Can you elaborate what sword and arrows you mean in your created passage?
And prove it that the Lord enthroned in Zion.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
Thank you and May God bless you.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
It's just one of the poetic devices that I used. The sword and arrows symbolizes Gods power that he will unleash on sinners in his judgement. As far as the Lord being enthroned in Zion, that's just something Christians take on faith. I used Zion to symbolize his kingdom which we believe is on the move
uncung
Member
sadly Quran although poetic it also contains literal meanings. such enthroned in Zion, it supposed means the throne in the place named Zion. You can't use the useless and unproven statement like that in describing the truth.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
Zion is actually a name used for his kingdom on the Bible. I applied it to what Christians believe is happening on Earth right now which is his kingdom moving forward, a kingdom found I the hearts on men... those who believe in Jesus
uncung
Member
Then you have to prove your claim that the kingdom is in Zion right now. Otherwise your challenge with Quran is failed.
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
I'm trying to say that in this age 'Zion' is in men's hearts
-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
We believe in this age, Gods kingdom is in mans heart. We believe his Spirit lives inside of us. That's where he reign on Earth, in the hearts of believer. That is effectively Zion for right now
uncung
Member
prove it that Zion is in our hearth. I am sorry if I am rude, due to my lack in english, I only try to emphasize that Quran is literally can be examined its facts, not merely a useles poetic content. when I say, for instance, oh my darling your eyes such a full moon, my love as great as rocky mountain, then I have to provide the proof that her eyes like full moon, the love like as great as a mountain. and so on.
Likewise Zion or throne in Zion or Kingdom in hearth, you have to responsible to your assertion, at least literally it must be true.