I have to be honest, Islam freaks me out

[Revoltingest]

No offense, but it is easy for you to say because you have your white privilege intact, never been made to feel like an outcaste (as most Muslim immigrants do). Since you're not in their position, do you really believe you have any moral right to comment?

If I may butt in, Madhuri.....
We all have a moral right to comment....nay, a moral obligation.
One's race or religion does not disqualify one from this.
I see no honor in the violent protests where they injure & kill innocent people.
This is to use their faith as an excuse to give into rage & commit unjust carnage.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I just don't see other religious groups expressing themselves this way. Even if you can find horrible things written in scripture from other religions, the followers are not seen to be so supportive of violence. It really scares me.

Police use pepper spray on anti-Islamic film protesters in Sydney at the US consulate | News.com.au

You're reacting to news coverage of specific acts by a small but loud group of fundamentalists within a religion. Consider for a moment, if CNN had existed to cover the crusades or better yet, Al Jazeera? Think of the atrocities committed by Christians on Jews, Arabs, Pagans, even each other all in the name of God being covered by a mainstream news organization.

While most cultures have embraced progress and moved beyond their violent and hateful past, there are still plenty of people who would love to return to the old ways. Christianity has Rev Phelps and Pat Robertson for example. Most Islamic countries today are controlled by fundamentalists who live and act like people from the middle ages. As long as they are in control, there will be violence and death.

 

[Madhuri]

No offense, but it is easy for you to say because you have your white privilege intact, never been made to feel like an outcaste (as most Muslim immigrants do). Since you're not in their position, do you really believe you have any moral right to comment?

As a Hindu in a western society of course I have experienced discrimination and ridicule.

Furthermore I don't see the Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh immigrants acting violently in response to the discrimination they receive.

 

[9Westy9]

A few bad apples.

So, do these bad apples have honour like all Muslims do? If so why are their protests so violent? If not then why did you claim all Muslims have honour?

And let's not forget the atrocities of other countries, which has probably resulted in this Islamic outrage to begin with.

like? (recent examples please)

 

[Music]

If I may butt in, Madhuri.....
We all have a moral right to comment....nay, a moral obligation.
One's race or religion does not disqualify one from this.
I see no honor in the violent protests where they injure & kill innocent people.
This is to use their faith as an excuse to give into rage & commit unjust carnage.

If you're straight and trivialize the problems faced by the gay community, would that be fair? Catch my drift?

 

[Madhuri]

While most cultures have embraced progress and moved beyond their violent and hateful past, there are still plenty of people who would love to return to the old ways. Christianity has Rev Phelps and Pat Robertson for example. Most Islamic countries today are controlled by fundamentalists who live and act like people from the middle ages. As long as they are in control, there will be violence and death.

I don't deny the atrocities of other religions or cultures. But I live in what is supposed to be a progressive culture and things like this make me afraid of regression.

 

[Music]

As a Hindu in a western society of course I have experienced discrimination and ridicule.

Furthermore I don't see the Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh immigrants acting violently in response to the discrimination they receive.

As I said before, these people are swallowing their pride, whereas Muslims are saying enough is enough.

 

[Madhuri]

As I said before, these people are swallowing their pride, whereas Muslims are saying enough is enough.

And I am saying, there's nothing good that comes from acting through violence. Violence breeds violence. And there's absolutely nothing honourable in it. And they will not be taken seriously because of the foolish behaviour. To be taken seriously and accepted in this culture you need to show intelligence, be able to engage in a safe and friendly manner and then people will respect instead of see you as a threat.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I don't deny the atrocities of other religions or cultures. But I live in what is supposed to be a progressive culture and things like this make me afraid of regression.

As you should be. Phelps scares the hell out of me but I don't worry about him gaining much power. Robertson is even scarier because, while more moderate compared to Phelps, he is still very fundamentalist in his thinking and has a huge number of followers. Santorum was the scariest of them all because he wants power to go along with his backward thinking. People look at Islam and say, Oh, that could never happen to us, but its well within the realm of possibility.

The biggest hurdle is getting moderate Muslims to stand up to their Fundamentalist factions and demand change. Since the Fundamentalists have all the guns and bombs it is a daunting task. But Islam will not be changed from an outside influence, it must be from within.

 

[Madhuri]

The biggest hurdle is getting moderate Muslims to stand up to their Fundamentalist factions and demand change. Since the Fundamentalists have all the guns and bombs it is a daunting task. But Islam will not be changed from an outside influence, it must be from within.

I think you may be right about that. I've also met and made friends with moderate Muslims and have no issues with them or their beliefs. But it's rare to hear them speak out against the extremists.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you're straight and trivialize the problems faced by the gay community, would that be fair? Catch my drift?

This doesn't appear to address my post, so I catch no drift.

 

[apophenia]

As I said before, these people are swallowing their pride, whereas Muslims are saying enough is enough.

But the muslims in Australia are not being treated badly. They are provided with homes, social security, freedom and equality.

And anyway, are you seriously suggesting that it is OK to commit and threaten murder because someone made a film you find offensive ? Do you think the whole planet should succumb to this religious bullying ? I think you are being way too PC.

I have been subject to very bad treatment myself, but I don't think that entitles me to threaten or commit murder. Are you suggesting that because it was a matter of 'honor' it would have been OK for me to threaten my abusers with death ? Or worse, to actually kill them ?

Or is that not OK because I'm not muslim ?

 

[Draka]

As I said before, these people are swallowing their pride, whereas Muslims are saying enough is enough.

No, no swallowing of pride. It's called rising above and proving people wrong and standing on their morals. Violence does nothing but lower a person and show people the ugliest side of someone. By reacting out in violence all one does is show the ugliest, the most horrific side of something or someone. All it does in this case is make those who dislike Islam, those who judge it as a violent religion...right. It reflects badly on everyone else of that religion. The loudest, most visible people of a group, unfortunately, are what people will remember of that group and right now...what people are seeing of Islam...are the violent idiots attacking and killing innocent people over things like movies. They are not seeing people "standing up" or "saying enough is enough". They are seeing violent people acting out in violent ways, period.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think you may be right about that. I've also met and made friends with moderate Muslims and have no issues with them or their beliefs. But it's rare to hear them speak out against the extremists.

Well, at least some Muslim leaders are speaking out against the violence. Here's hoping more people follow suit.

 

[apophenia]

If you're straight and trivialize the problems faced by the gay community, would that be fair? Catch my drift?

I haven't noticed the gay community calling for beheadings, or killing innocent people in symbolic brutal acts, so the comparison is meaningless.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Other communities are also violent, just that they don't have the guts to stand up to what they believe is right. Muslims have honor.

Muslims are people, some have honor, others don't. How can a community be violent and not have the guts to stand up for themselves? :sarcastic

Other communities are peaceful? Hmm....

Can you expand on this? It seems like you are trying to say something but it isn't really clear.

Ethnic groups have always been the butt of ridicule and stereotypes. And while most of them swallow their pride and ignore it, Muslims are now saying enough is enough. And that scares people.

Muslims are not "now" doing anything. Nor have I noticed them swallowing their pride and ignoring anything. They move to countries where they can be more successful and safe but demand that their cultural ways have precedent over their new countries. The need to learn how to assimilate and actually join their new culture instead of trying to form a bubble of their old culture and then daring people to pop it.

No offense, but it is easy for you to say because you have your white privilege intact, never been made to feel like an outcaste (as most Muslim immigrants do). Since you're not in their position, do you really believe you have any moral right to comment?

That was rather judgmental of you. You should consider the fact that you know none of us and making statements about any one of us will most likely result in hoof in mouth disease.

A few bad apples. And let's not forget the atrocities of other countries, which has probably resulted in this Islamic outrage to begin with.

Excuses, excuses. It really seems by this point that you're either Muslim and defensive or a Islamic apologist.

If you're straight and trivialize the problems faced by the gay community, would that be fair? Catch my drift?

Fair attempt but it falls short of the mark. Nice try though.

As I said before, these people are swallowing their pride, whereas Muslims are saying enough is enough.

Muslims are not saying enough is enough, they are saying we want more and more and more and more. Not all Muslims of course, but the ones who are protesting currently are.

 

[Pastek]

So here it is, i've found the debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3mtYe5TME&feature=plcp

As you know, Al Jazeera is watch a lot in all arabic countries.
So, i don't know how it was discuss in non-arabic muslim countries, i'm just talking about the Arab World.

The Imam start to talk at 7:00 and he said :
First of all they are sad (the Imams from Al Azhar) about the murder of the US ambassador in Benghazi
That Islam is against the killing of a human beeing
He quoted the verse "And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right." (Sourate 17.33)
He said that people react like that (meaning what they do against Islam) because it's not their religion and they thing they have the right to act in that way
And in the time of the Prophet, people too mocked him.

And he said to the man who talked before (the american), that his freedom have limits when its cross freedom of the others.

Then after around 17:00 He said the culpables (those who did the film) must be found. Because it caused a fitna between muslims and christians egyptians (the Imam is Egyptian).
And he said that they (egyptians) will not accept that people try to provoc those kind of things (fitna between christians & muslims) in their country.

 

[Musty]

I just don't see other religious groups expressing themselves this way. Even if you can find horrible things written in scripture from other religions, the followers are not seen to be so supportive of violence. It really scares me.

-Can't post links yet-

Of all the main religious I find Islam to be one of the most violent ones. When people to say that the violent individuals don't represent true Islam but then that just runs into the problem of determining what being a true Muslim actually means. I'm sure that the violent Muslims see the non-violent Muslims as being weak or even non-Muslim because they aren't prepared to defend their religion in a manner they think the prophet Muhammad would have expected them too have.

It's the general problem with religion that it's existence results in a spectrum of individual ranging from pacifist to violent maniac, all of whom are convinced that their behavior is sanctioned by a supreme being. Perhaps worse generally genial people can easily be whipped up into a frothing rage by their religious leaders and beliefs.

It seems that Muslims are particularly sensitive to any perceived or real insult in a manner which isn't compatible with western society which largely tolerates this kind of stuff (Libel courts aside). Even if they don't become violent they often attack freedom of speech because they can't accept that people can hold views which they may find insulting.

 

[Madhuri]

Then after around 17:00 He said the culpables (those who did the film) must be found. Because it caused a fitna between muslims and christians egyptians (the Imam is Egyptian).
And he said that they (egyptians) will not accept that people try to provoc those kind of things (fitna between christians & muslims) in their country.

How did the film cause this chaos between Muslims and Christians in Egypt?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

How did the film cause this chaos between Muslims and Christians in Egypt?

The film was created by Coptic Christians. Egypt is the home of Coptic Christianity.