I just saw this ridiculous commercial for the 2nd time:

[URAVIP2ME]

Please do not prevaricate, it's unbecoming. The bible's description simply doesn't fit with your "example".
Principally because your "example" has to be quite tiny to work, and the bible's ark is anything but small.
So. To Sum Up: A wooden boat built to 450 feet out of WOOD, regardless of it's actual SHAPE?
Will sink. Very quickly. This is basic physics, and you can deny it all you like.
But that simply makes you wrong. Again.

I notice you left out a detail because Noah's Ark was sealed both inside and outside.
Please notice Genesis 6:14 because the Ark was covered within and without with water-proofing pitch ( tar).
So, the wood was completely water-sealed off both inwardly and outwardly.
I wonder if anyone would make a small-model Ark covered with sealant and see if it would sink in their bathtub.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I notice you left out a detail because Noah's Ark was sealed both inside and outside.
Please notice Genesis 6:14 because the Ark was covered within and without with water-proofing pitch ( tar).
So, the wood was completely water-sealed off both inwardly and outwardly.
I wonder if anyone would make a small-model Ark covered with sealant and see if it would sink in their bathtub.

Why do you think that would make any difference? Pitch is not a magic glue. Put it under high enough stress and it will fail. Pitch or not the seams would open up and the Ark would leak.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yipes ! The ' infinite torture ' teaching I find is a Non-biblical teaching just wrongly being taught as being Scripture.
Only 'destruction awaits the wicked' as per Psalms 92:7.
No pain just non-existence because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:!7; Psalms 146:4.
To which 'hell' are you referring because the Bible's hell is simply mankind's tone-cold temporary grave.
Biblical hell is just the temporary grave for the sleeping dead - John 11:11-14; Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Please notice what happens to the Bible's hell as per Revelation 20:13-14.
After everyone in biblical hell (grave) is ' delivered up' (meaning resurrected out of hell), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic 'second death' for vacated hell.
So, No one should worry about ' hell ' whether believer or non-believer.

Whereas I appreciate your effort to remove the hate-theology from christianity? And your efforts are well received too.

Unfortunately, to do what you do there, we have to take a more intelligent approach to scripture, and not one that is purely literal.

I say "unfortunately" because that immediately casts the bible into more of a nebulous book of suggestions, than a book of direct intent commands.

Which is fine: A Big Book Of Suggestions is much more friendly. All it lacks is a nice "Don't Panic" in the cover, and it'd be All Set.

But, since interpretation seems to be required, here? And there are no real instructions on *how* to do that?

That means the bible literally means something entirely different with every single person who reads it! Which would be fine, except that there is enough congruence among many, that Laws get passed based on what is just an Educated Guess on the part of every reader.

....

But nevermindallthat. The fact that the bible is so unclear? Tells me it is anything BUT divinely inspired.

I would fully expect a god to do ... better.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I notice you left out a detail because Noah's Ark was sealed both inside and outside.
Please notice Genesis 6:14 because the Ark was covered within and without with water-proofing pitch ( tar).
So, the wood was completely water-sealed off both inwardly and outwardly.
I wonder if anyone would make a small-model Ark covered with sealant and see if it would sink in their bathtub.

Sealed with .... what? Oh! Tar.

See-- here's the problem with TAR: IT GETS HARD AT COOL TEMPERATURES. (and with ALL THAT RAIN? It'll be quite cold)

Hard and brittle. "Seal" it all you want-- as soon as the ark FLEXES? And being made of WOOD, it WILL FLEX.

The seams open up-- water comes pouring in-- WASHING OUT THE HARDENED TAR -- and it comes in even faster.

DOWN THE ARK GOES-- sunk within an hour. Or less.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I have never found a cabin created by God, but I have found buildings created by intelligent men.
So, to me a cabin in the woods would mean it was created or built by an intelligent person.
A cabin in the woods did Not create itself but an intelligent person did.
So, the design in nature, in outer space, shows it was done by an intelligent person.
Where there is a person, there is a mind, where there is a mind there is a personality.
God's personality shows through in our earthly home and outer space.

What do you make of a largish dam, cleverly constructed across a stream, such that it floods a meadow. And all the nearby trees were cleverly cut down with an obviously quite-sharp cutting tool, used to construct the dam. Clay from the banks was also used to seal the gaps between the tree trunks. Not only that? The trunks were quite cleverly positioned to take full advantage of other natural features in the banks of the stream, such as large rocks.

Moreover? Many medium-to-small rocks were also incorporated in the construction of the dam.

WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE AN INTELLIGENCE?

Because what I described is a beaver's dam. Constructed entirely by a pack of animals-- no more intelligent than your average dog.

 

[ecco]

The Bible says, God shut the door to the ark.

I couldn't find that. Which version of the bible are you looking at?

 

[ecco]

that's not really true, because no matter how much they see evidence of the supernatural, they will always deny it... because of their mindset.

No. You are entitled to your opinion even when it is wrong.

We deny the supernatural because we have never seen any evidence of it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I couldn't find that. Which version of the bible are you looking at?

Quite a few, the link is to Bible hub and they show many different interpretations:

Genesis 7:16 And they entered, the male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No. You are entitled to your opinion even when it is wrong.

We deny the supernatural because we have never seen any evidence of it.

Something that they can understand when logic and reason are applied to any god but theirs.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Whereas I appreciate your effort to remove the hate-theology from christianity? And your efforts are well received too.
Unfortunately, to do what you do there, we have to take a more intelligent approach to scripture, and not one that is purely literal.
I say "unfortunately" because that immediately casts the bible into more of a nebulous book of suggestions, than a book of direct intent commands.
Which is fine: A Big Book Of Suggestions is much more friendly. All it lacks is a nice "Don't Panic" in the cover, and it'd be All Set.
But, since interpretation seems to be required, here? And there are no real instructions on *how* to do that?
That means the bible literally means something entirely different with every single person who reads it! Which would be fine, except that there is enough congruence among many, that Laws get passed based on what is just an Educated Guess on the part of every reader.
But nevermindallthat. The fact that the bible is so unclear? Tells me it is anything BUT divinely inspired.
I would fully expect a god to do ... better.

Thank you Bob for your reply.
I find the ' Do Not eat from the forbidden tree.... ' was a direct intent command.
I like the idea of a nice "Don't Panic" on the cover, and to me the "Don't Panic" is near the back cover.
Don't panic because the Bible's happy climax at Revelation 22:2 is that there is 'healing' coming to earth's nations.
The interpretation is simple as found at Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18 that Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations. No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24.
Even enemy death will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.
As to ' how to interpret ' -> Since the Bible is Not written in ABC order then we need to view the Bible by subject or topic arrangement. A comprehensive concordance puts the Bible in ABC order so we can see what each of the Bible writers had to say on each subject or topic. To me that is Not unclear, but quite clear with instructions.

 

[ecco]

Looking at this video...

...you realize that the structures seem so impossible by human construct, that many feel the only explanation must be outside this realm,

Why is it titled Forbidden Archaeology? Who is forbidding it?

Your comment "seem so impossible" is a general theme that permeates creationists. Evolution seems so impossible it can't be right. Ancient building seems so impossible it must have required the supernatural.

Anything too complex to be understood must be GodDidIt.

And yet, with study and research and a lot of hard work, we find it's not too complex and not reliant on superstition.

Having to read just one book is a lot easier than having to read many and study and do research.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What do you make of a largish dam, cleverly constructed across a stream, such that it floods a meadow. And all the nearby trees were cleverly cut down with an obviously quite-sharp cutting tool, used to construct the dam. Clay from the banks was also used to seal the gaps between the tree trunks. Not only that? The trunks were quite cleverly positioned to take full advantage of other natural features in the banks of the stream, such as large rocks.
Moreover? Many medium-to-small rocks were also incorporated in the construction of the dam.
WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE AN INTELLIGENCE?
Because what I described is a beaver's dam. Constructed entirely by a pack of animals-- no more intelligent than your average dog.

I like your mention of a beaver's dam.
Years back this area had a drought problem.
One section brought in beavers to help solve the problem.
Well, it worked so overly well that the nearby road became flooded !. Bring on those smart beavers !

Dogs to me have a different intelligence, but beavers can't be made to be house pets.
You can't give a dog or a beaver a blueprint whereas an intelligent person can make different things.
We are to learn even from the industrious little 'ant' according to Proverbs 6:6.
That means we have superior intelligence to learn from lower creation to our benefit.
I read that some modern car shapes are fashioned after the box fish.
Since some fish swim in schools and don't have accidents like car drivers do, then it would be a good idea for intelligent man to study those swimming-in-schools fish and use their navigating abilities for our good use.
We do Not have to learn just by trial and error but accurate guidance from Bible principles like the Golden Rule.

 

[ecco]

the Ark Myth ...It was never meant to be taken literally since it is obviously fantasy.

With all due respect, I gotta disagree. The entire OT was meant to be taken literally. You and I realize it's "obviously fantasy" but to the people for whom it was compiled, it was meant as literal truth and it was accepted as literal truth. Even today, with all of mankind's accumulated knowledge, many still accept it as literal truth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sealed with .... what? Oh! Tar.
See-- here's the problem with TAR: IT GETS HARD AT COOL TEMPERATURES. (and with ALL THAT RAIN? It'll be quite cold)
Hard and brittle. "Seal" it all you want-- as soon as the ark FLEXES? And being made of WOOD, it WILL FLEX.
The seams open up-- water comes pouring in-- WASHING OUT THE HARDENED TAR -- and it comes in even faster.
DOWN THE ARK GOES-- sunk within an hour. Or less.

What pre-dates even the Flood the ' tar ' that was used was Bitumen.
What is the Dead Sea area had pits upon pits of Bitumen for Noah's use - Genesis 14:10.
No worry about Bitumen catching fire in the flood waters.
There is No way to know just how cool or not the flood waters were at that time frame.

 

[nPeace]

Because your sources are known liars? There is little to be gained by reading nonsense from creationist websites or videos. This is because creationists do not do science. They don't even pretend to do science: in fact, the most notorious creationist agencies forbid their employees to even use the scientific method, but to swear on paper, they will ignore all evidence that might contradict the bible... as they see it. They don't even see the irony, either...

So you you think is "evidence"... is in fact, preaching and/or propaganda from people who have admitted they will happily lie if they have to, so as to avoid THEIR version of the bible.

Ironically, the same bible that mainstream christians use-- but have no problem with the idea the Ark never happened as written.



I always answer questions that are serious. And I do address evidence-- but so far? You don't do that, much.

And when you do? Upon careful examination? It doesn't say what YOU said it says.



Oh! Like your continuous repeating of the word "air"?

Like that? Hmmmmmmmmm......


I would LOVE to debate actual facts. It's a shame you don't have any...

If the evidence is really not scientific evidence, it shouldn't be so difficult to show why it isn't. To say it isn't fullstop, doesn't carry much weight does it.

If everyone responded that way to those they disagree with, what kind of debate would there be?
No. That is false. Nonsense.

Don't you think it would be better to explain why, and show something counter to it, so the person can have something to counter argue?
What's the use of being back and forth with opinions, for which there is nothing to support it, but just say that's the way it is?
Would one not be right in referring to them as empty words - air?

Yes. You did... repeatedly. Multiple times in nearly every post.

Every time you say "air" in your mocking tone, in fact... is calling me a liar.

There you go again - stating things as though they are fact, when they are not. This is exactly what I don't find any interest in. It's as though there is no substance to debated - nothing. Like a waste of finger typing.

Do you think if you said this in court, anyone would take you seriously? Come on.
I think the judge might more consider you the one lying, and charge you for wasting the court's time.
Air is used with reference to something that is empty. I'm not lying.

The hate runs deep in this one.

Notice how quickly she stoops to threats of INFINITE TORTURE.

How nice that is to witness.

What an UGLY and HATE-FILLED god she worships-- in that ONLY BY FORCE OR TORTURE can her god be .... "convincing".

Ain't that cute?

If atheists were at ALL worried about hell? They'd not be atheists...!

The fact that you keep mentioning eternal torment to persons who did not even refer to it, mention it, or believe it, says a lot about your fears.
If you fear that so much, I could imagine how some of your dreams are. I can also imagine how often the thought fills your mind when you think about the end.
Perhaps you may be one of those persons first to "break their neck" to run in a church, if it appeared the end was really imminent.

 

[ecco]

Have you ever found a cabin in the woods created by God? Has anyone? If you can show me one I'll fall on my knees and praise God.

On the other hand, are you saying that God himself patiently connects oxygen atoms to two hydrogen atoms to make a molecule of water?

No, I have never found a cabin created by God, but I have found buildings created by intelligent men.
So, to me a cabin in the woods would mean it was created or built by an intelligent person.
A cabin in the woods did Not create itself but an intelligent person did.So, the design in nature, in outer space, shows it was done by an intelligent person.

Yes, an intelligent person, not god could and did build a cabin.

What design in nature? Are you saying that God himself patiently connects oxygen atoms to two hydrogen atoms to make a molecule of water?

Where there is a person, there is a mind, where there is a mind there is a personality.
God's personality shows through in our earthly home and outer space.

God's personality shows through what is written about Him. He horrifically killed almost all of his creation - including innocent animals and all plants. If God is so powerful that he can create an entire universe, surely He is powerful enough to eliminate all the evil humans and spare the plants and animals.

A man builds a log cabin and a barn and stables and coops and fences. Shortly, he finds that the wire used in the fencing is rusting.

If he is an intelligent man he replaces the wires with something better.

If he is a man with the personality of your God, he angrily tears down the log cabin and the barn and the stables and the coops and the fences and burns all the wood he used. He also blames the man who sold him rusting wires even though the label clearly stated the wires would rust when used outdoors.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If the evidence is really not scientific evidence, it shouldn't be so difficult to show why it isn't. To say it isn't fullstop, doesn't carry much weight does it.

If everyone responded that way to those they disagree with, what kind of debate would there be?
No. That is false. Nonsense.

Don't you think it would be better to explain why, and show something counter to it, so the person can have something to counter argue?
What's the use of being back and forth with opinions, for which there is nothing to support it, but just say that's the way it is?
Would one not be right in referring to them as empty words - air?


There you go again - stating things as though they are fact, when they are not. This is exactly what I don't find any interest in. It's as though there is no substance to debated - nothing. Like a waste of finger typing.

Do you think if you said this in court, anyone would take you seriously? Come on.
I think the judge might more consider you the one lying, and charge you for wasting the court's time.
Air is used with reference to something that is empty. I'm not lying.


The fact that you keep mentioning eternal torment to persons who did not even refer to it, mention it, or believe it, says a lot about your fears.
If you fear that so much, I could imagine how some of your dreams are. I can also imagine how often the thought fills your mind when you think about the end.
Perhaps you may be one of those persons first to "break their neck" to run in a church, if it appeared the end was really imminent.

You do not even know what is and what is not scientific evidence. I will tell you that there is no scientific evidence for the flood myth. That is something that I won't prove, it is something that you will prove. Would you like to learn what scientific evidence is so that you do not continue to make such bad errors?

 

[Subduction Zone]

With all due respect, I gotta disagree. The entire OT was meant to be taken literally. You and I realize it's "obviously fantasy" but to the people for whom it was compiled, it was meant as literal truth and it was accepted as literal truth. Even today, with all of mankind's accumulated knowledge, many still accept it as literal truth.

I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. If there is any truth to their beliefs at all it was obviously meant not to be read literally. Anyone that can reason beyond the middle school level can easily understand why the flood story is a myth. What is amazing is how extreme cognitive dissonance can be at times.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Thank you Bob for your reply.
I find the ' Do Not eat from the forbidden tree.... ' was a direct intent command.
I like the idea of a nice "Don't Panic" on the cover, and to me the "Don't Panic" is near the back cover.
Don't panic because the Bible's happy climax at Revelation 22:2 is that there is 'healing' coming to earth's nations.
The interpretation is simple as found at Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18 that Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations. No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24.
Even enemy death will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.

So YOU say. I have heard the exact same references you used? To mean quite different things than how YOU take them.

Which should I pick? Yours? Some other strangers? The interpretation from someone who's Life Study was the Hebrew Texts? (you call it old testament, only yours has lots of edits and is missing most of the best writings)

I will note that NONE of these others agree with YOU-- and indeed-- right here on RF? Lots and lots of RF members ALSO do not agree with YOU.

Whom to believe, then?

As to ' how to interpret ' -> Since the Bible is Not written in ABC order then we need to view the Bible by subject or topic arrangement. A comprehensive concordance puts the Bible in ABC order so we can see what each of the Bible writers had to say on each subject or topic. To me that is Not unclear, but quite clear with instructions..

WHO SAYS? Who wrote that opinion-piece? (you call it a concordance-- but that is JUST someone's opinion!)

Again--- this is all just YOUR say-so-- who made YOU the Ultimate Authority?

 

[ecco]

I wonder if anyone would make a small-model Ark covered with sealant and see if it would sink in their bathtub.

A "small-model" would not prove anything for reasons stated multiple times in this thread. Wooden ships of one hundred fifty feet are seaworthy. Wooden ships of three hundred feet are not.



Wooden ships of any length cannot withstand the kinds of waves that would have been generated by the sudden influx of trillions of gallons of water hourly into the seas and oceans. The best modern ships cannot withstand the kinds of waves that would have been generated by the sudden influx of trillions of gallons of water hourly into the seas and oceans.