I just saw this ridiculous commercial for the 2nd time:

[nPeace]

Please do not prevaricate, it's unbecoming. The bible's description simply doesn't fit with your "example".

Principally because your "example" has to be quite tiny to work, and the bible's ark is anything but small.

So. To Sum Up: A wooden boat built to 450 feet out of WOOD, regardless of it's actual SHAPE?

Will sink. Very quickly. This is basic physics, and you can deny it all you like.

But that simply makes you wrong. Again.

I find whenever it comes to explaining anything, you just avoid responding, either by making empty baseless statements like, '...lying videos.' or you just make a short exit, with empty words.

Why is it you never seem capable of answering questions, and addressing data presented to challenge your empty claims?
You seem to just be interested in making mocking remarks.
I don't find that to be as interesting as debating actual facts.
Anyway, if that's fun for you...

Since we never seem able to have a meaningful debate, where you respond to questions posed to you, I thank you...
I can go back to where we last ended.

 

[nPeace]

I'm going to ask you to quit lying about what I said. It's unbecoming.

It's also quite ugly for you to continue to call me a liar-- which is what you are doing above. Also unbecoming of someone claiming to be from a "loving" religion.

I'm not lying. I didn't call you a liar.

 

[nPeace]

We know what it looked like: A rectangular box, so many "cubits" long, high, wide, etc, etc, etc.

Made of... WOOD. Not plywood. Not wood reinforced with iron or steel. WOOD. With WOODEN PEGS to hold it together.

I have been working with wood since I was in grade school. You cannot make a thing that size, out of WOOD, and NOT have it sink.

Especially in ROUGH SEAS-- because the volume of water required to cover the earth in only 40 days? WOULD BE THE SAME AS BEING IN A WATERFALL. FOR 40 DAYS.

The fact is? ANYTHING made of WOOD would be utterly destroyed by that strong of "rainfall" in a matter of minutes.

But that much water falling that fast would create the MOTHER OF ALL STORMS, with respect to waves.

The ark would have SUNK in seconds, if it magically survived the WATERFALL.

I don't find you to be stating facts, since you can only speculate as to what you think. I will not speculate either.
Peace.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't find you to be stating facts, since you can only speculate as to what you think. I will not speculate either.
Peace.

I would call posting videos by liars as not being very honest. You let others do your dirty work for you.

 

[Deeje]

Unfortunately for you? There remains zero reason (and less evidence) that would suggest an actual intelligent designer.

No design?

This looks like design to me. So who is the designer?

Fibonacci sequence.....fascinating!

If you use something that is has a specific purpose, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that nobody made it?

If you stumbled upon a cabin in the woods that had good lighting, solar electricity, plumbing, heating and cooling, carpet on the floor and a fully stocked refrigerator...and it had a sign on the door saying "come on in...help yourself to whatever you need...just leave the place as clean as you found it." Would you imagine that the house just appeared out of nowhere?....with no owner....no builder, no plumber, no electrician, no one to stock the fridge?
This is planet earth....so much more complex than any cabin, but you think it just appeared all by itself?

We actually have as much substantiated evidence for an Intelligent Creator as science does for mindless evolution.

Guesses, suggestions and assumptions can be part of a theory...but none of it is a fact unless you have proof. Science has no proof, but they will tell you that they have "overwhelming evidence"....but when you examine that evidence you find out that it is built on interpretation of that evidence, based on guesses, suggestions and assumptions. Which basically means that scientists cannot back up a single thing they say with anything "concrete" about any of it. Their superior argument does not exist except in the minds of those who want it to true. The only "overwhelming" part of it is the volume....but a mountain of nothing is still nothing.

What with all the total lack of anything designed.

Of course! There is no design evident in nature at all!!.....

I can't imagine why anyone would think there was design in nature. Apparently these guys just designed themselves....? How many fortunate flukes were necessary to produce even these few?

In fact? Looking around the Universe? It looks more like everything is pretty random, just as you'd expect, if gravity is the primary "creative" force in the Universe.

Just look at what is out there......these are just random accidents "assembled because of gravity"...?
Hubble anniversary: 25 of the most beautiful images captured by Nasa's space telescope

And the Universe seems to be assembled because of Gravity, not some magical, wish-granting super-being.

You make me laugh....who created gravity? How does one have laws with no lawmaker? How can one have codes of detailed and complex information transmitted biologically....but no one is responsible for the information in the first place and the method of transmission was just a fluke? That is like owning a computer with a multitude of programs, but saying the computer designed itself and there was no programmer. Is that logical? Would you feel stupid claiming that?

And who said the Creator is a "magical, wish-granting super-being"...that is your version of the Creator but it doesn't even come close to the one I know. Maybe if you walked around with your eyes open you might see what we see....or maybe not.

I have asked theists like yourself, if they believe in Magic.
Of course, most give a vehement "NO!"
But when I ask if they believe in god? I find out they lied to my first question......

Well the people who say that ARE lying....because the Bible does speak of magic and forbids us to have anything to do with it. If it doesn't exist, then why put a prohibition on it?

What you fail to understand is that the Creator is not a practicer of "magic" because "magic" is the misuse of supernatural power, but he tells us that the devil uses it to his advantage. He also tells us that this enemy of God is a masterful deceiver because he can employ magic to fool those who like to see 'tricks' performed. These are the same kind of people who fall down or who sway and weep amid their shouts of praise to their deity. That is not to be mistaken for real Christianity.

Conversely he can also use the power of suggestion to convince the masses that both he and the Creator are not real. Then he's really gotcha....but you will have to find that out for yourself, like we all will eventually.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No design?

This looks like design to me. So who is the designer?

Fibonacci sequence.....fascinating!

If you use something that is has a specific purpose, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that nobody made it?

If you stumbled upon a cabin in the woods that had good lighting, solar electricity, plumbing, heating and cooling, carpet on the floor and a fully stocked refrigerator...and it had a sign on the door saying "come on in...help yourself to whatever you need...just leave the place as clean as you found it." Would you imagine that the house just appeared out of nowhere?....with no owner....no builder, no plumber, no electrician, no one to stock the fridge?
This is planet earth....so much more complex than any cabin, but you think it just appeared all by itself?

We actually have as much substantiated evidence for an Intelligent Creator as science does for mindless evolution.

Guesses, suggestions and assumptions can be part of a theory...but none of it is a fact unless you have proof. Science has no proof, but they will tell you that they have "overwhelming evidence"....but when you examine that evidence you find out that it is built on interpretation of that evidence, based on guesses, suggestions and assumptions. Which basically means that scientists cannot back up a single thing they say with anything "concrete" about any of it. Their superior argument does not exist except in the minds of those who want it to true. The only "overwhelming" part of it is the volume....but a mountain of nothing is still nothing.



Of course! There is no design evident in nature at all!!.....

I can't imagine why anyone would think there was design in nature. Apparently these guys just designed themselves....? How many fortunate flukes were necessary to produce even these few?

Just look at what is out there......these are just random accidents "assembled because of gravity"...?
Hubble anniversary: 25 of the most beautiful images captured by Nasa's space telescope



You make me laugh....who created gravity? How does one have laws with no lawmaker? How can one have codes of detailed and complex information transmitted biologically....but no one is responsible for the information in the first place and the method of transmission was just a fluke? That is like owning a computer with a multitude of programs, but saying the computer designed itself and there was no programmer. Is that logical? Would you feel stupid claiming that?

And who said the Creator is a "magical, wish-granting super-being"...that is your version of the Creator but it doesn't even come close to the one I know. Maybe if you walked around with your eyes open you might see what we see....or maybe not.



Well the people who say that ARE lying....because the Bible does speak of magic and forbids us to have anything to do with it. If it doesn't exist, then why put a prohibition on it?

What you fail to understand is that the Creator is not a practicer of "magic" because "magic" is the misuse of supernatural power, but he tells us that the devil uses it to his advantage. He also tells us that this enemy of God is a masterful deceiver because he can employ magic to fool those who like to see 'tricks' performed. These are the same kind of people who fall down or who sway and weep amid their shouts of praise to their deity. That is not to be mistaken for real Christianity.

Conversely he can also use the power of suggestion to convince the masses that both he and the Creator are not real. Then he's really gotcha....but you will have to find that out for yourself, like we all will eventually.

Please don't spam the thread with old failed arguments. If you can do so honestly I won't have much of a problem with it. But what you just did is a Gish Gallop. A particularly dishonest and improper debating technique. Please bring up such claims one at a time.

 

[ecco]

ecco:
Religious indoctrination of the young is the primary means of filling the mind with concrete.

That depends on whether you consider godless, undirected creation as "concrete" (which I do)....preventing young minds from even contemplating the possibility of Intelligent Design is simply the boot on the other foot. You have your own concrete IMO.

You can go to any Church, Synagouge or Mosque and see infants and young children being exposed to religion. There are prayer groups and bible study groups and religious camps aimed at young children. The first time the vast majority of children get any introduction to evolution or "godless, undirected creation" is a few hours in the 8th grade.

There is no comparison. Think back on when you first heard about the glories of god.

That's funny...what you describe is not Christianity....not even remotely close. Christ promoted things based on knowledge, not just on transient emotions. I assure you that the original Christians had a more solid basis for their faith.

As did their fellows who believed in any number of different gods at the time.

Perhaps it's more a case of hating the idea of God?

I think belief in the concepts of gods is silly. It is people hoping for more than they find in their lives. I do despise the denigration of science that is fostered by many religious people. Countries like China realize the importance of promoting and understanding science. I think this is a great threat to our Country. But some religious people don't care because they believe that, any day now, god will return and science will not matter.

I haven't see anyone substantiate the alternative though. Its a belief that it all happened by chance but they can never prove any of it.

Ancient man: Where does lightning come from?
Shaman: GodDidIt
Ancient man: Why did our crops die?
Shaman: GodDidIt
Ancient man: Why do young people get sick and die?
Shaman: GodDidIt

GodDidIt has never been the right answer to explain things that were unknowable at the time. It still isn't. There is overwhelming evidence from multiple branches of substantiating evolution. We are still working on the details of abiogenesis.

But some people will always disagree with science. Do you believe the earth is a sphere revolving around the sun or do you believe it is flat?



RE: Psychic Snowflakes

I don't know...I have never encountered one....however, I have encountered the Creator on many occasions.

People who hear voices inside their heads are suspect.

 

[ecco]

If you stumbled upon a cabin in the woods that had good lighting, solar electricity, plumbing, heating and cooling, carpet on the floor and a fully stocked refrigerator...and it had a sign on the door saying "come on in...help yourself to whatever you need...just leave the place as clean as you found it." Would you imagine that the house just appeared out of nowhere?....with no owner....no builder, no plumber, no electrician, no one to stock the fridge?

Have you ever found a cabin in the woods created by God? Has anyone? If you can show me one I'll fall on my knees and praise God.

On the other hand, are you saying that God himself patiently connects oxygen atoms to two hydrogen atoms to make a molecule of water?

 

[ecco]

dbl post

 

[nPeace]

No design?

This looks like design to me. So who is the designer?

Fibonacci sequence.....fascinating!

If you use something that is has a specific purpose, do you immediately leap to the conclusion that nobody made it?

If you stumbled upon a cabin in the woods that had good lighting, solar electricity, plumbing, heating and cooling, carpet on the floor and a fully stocked refrigerator...and it had a sign on the door saying "come on in...help yourself to whatever you need...just leave the place as clean as you found it." Would you imagine that the house just appeared out of nowhere?....with no owner....no builder, no plumber, no electrician, no one to stock the fridge?
This is planet earth....so much more complex than any cabin, but you think it just appeared all by itself?

We actually have as much substantiated evidence for an Intelligent Creator as science does for mindless evolution.

Guesses, suggestions and assumptions can be part of a theory...but none of it is a fact unless you have proof. Science has no proof, but they will tell you that they have "overwhelming evidence"....but when you examine that evidence you find out that it is built on interpretation of that evidence, based on guesses, suggestions and assumptions. Which basically means that scientists cannot back up a single thing they say with anything "concrete" about any of it. Their superior argument does not exist except in the minds of those who want it to true. The only "overwhelming" part of it is the volume....but a mountain of nothing is still nothing.



Of course! There is no design evident in nature at all!!.....

I can't imagine why anyone would think there was design in nature. Apparently these guys just designed themselves....? How many fortunate flukes were necessary to produce even these few?

Just look at what is out there......these are just random accidents "assembled because of gravity"...?
Hubble anniversary: 25 of the most beautiful images captured by Nasa's space telescope



You make me laugh....who created gravity? How does one have laws with no lawmaker? How can one have codes of detailed and complex information transmitted biologically....but no one is responsible for the information in the first place and the method of transmission was just a fluke? That is like owning a computer with a multitude of programs, but saying the computer designed itself and there was no programmer. Is that logical? Would you feel stupid claiming that?

And who said the Creator is a "magical, wish-granting super-being"...that is your version of the Creator but it doesn't even come close to the one I know. Maybe if you walked around with your eyes open you might see what we see....or maybe not.



Well the people who say that ARE lying....because the Bible does speak of magic and forbids us to have anything to do with it. If it doesn't exist, then why put a prohibition on it?

What you fail to understand is that the Creator is not a practicer of "magic" because "magic" is the misuse of supernatural power, but he tells us that the devil uses it to his advantage. He also tells us that this enemy of God is a masterful deceiver because he can employ magic to fool those who like to see 'tricks' performed. These are the same kind of people who fall down or who sway and weep amid their shouts of praise to their deity. That is not to be mistaken for real Christianity.

Conversely he can also use the power of suggestion to convince the masses that both he and the Creator are not real. Then he's really gotcha....but you will have to find that out for yourself, like we all will eventually.

Wow!
You sure know how to pick 'em. Those pictures are beautiful!
You just sent my mind right into paradise. Thanks for the reminder.

You know, I was thinking about what you said about minds set in concrete, and it reminded me of the saying, "seeing is believing." and thinking that for some, that's not really true, because no matter how much they see evidence of the supernatural, they will always deny it... because of their mindset.

Looking at this video...

...you realize that the structures seem so impossible by human construct, that many feel the only explanation must be outside this realm, yet no matter how many thousands of years go by without being able to prove otherwise, there are those that will never submit to that option.

We have heard it said that certain things would not have been possible without divine help.
The Bible says that the Israelites won battles with divine help, a case in point, when the attendant of Elisha saw the invisible army.
The Bible says, God shut the door to the ark. Obviously an indication that God was very much involved in its construction.

Would that ever be believed by those who have a closed mindset.
Not even a million years will change their minds.

That will only happen when they are whupped by God.
I really hope they are alive when God starts whupping.
Thanks again for the Paradise reminder.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I find whenever it comes to explaining anything, you just avoid responding, either by making empty baseless statements like, '...lying videos.' or you just make a short exit, with empty words..

Because your sources are known liars? There is little to be gained by reading nonsense from creationist websites or videos. This is because creationists do not do science. They don't even pretend to do science: in fact, the most notorious creationist agencies forbid their employees to even use the scientific method, but to swear on paper, they will ignore all evidence that might contradict the bible... as they see it. They don't even see the irony, either...

So you you think is "evidence"... is in fact, preaching and/or propaganda from people who have admitted they will happily lie if they have to, so as to avoid THEIR version of the bible.

Ironically, the same bible that mainstream christians use-- but have no problem with the idea the Ark never happened as written.

Why is it you never seem capable of answering questions, and addressing data presented to challenge your empty claims?.

I always answer questions that are serious. And I do address evidence-- but so far? You don't do that, much.

And when you do? Upon careful examination? It doesn't say what YOU said it says.

You seem to just be interested in making mocking remarks..

Oh! Like your continuous repeating of the word "air"?

Like that? Hmmmmmmmmm......

I don't find that to be as interesting as debating actual facts..

I would LOVE to debate actual facts. It's a shame you don't have any...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm not lying. I didn't call you a liar.

Yes. You did... repeatedly. Multiple times in nearly every post.

Every time you say "air" in your mocking tone, in fact... is calling me a liar.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't find you to be stating facts, since you can only speculate as to what you think. I will not speculate either.
Peace.

So you deny actual reality? Okay. I'm not in the least bit surprised that you do that, but.... there you go.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No design?

This looks like design to me. So who is the designer?

Fibonacci sequence.....fascinating!.

Argument from ignorance Logical Fallacy.

Also, argument from incredulity Logical Fallacy.

Look that up-- it's what you are doing here.

In fact? Those two sum up the entirety of your post.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You make me laugh....who created gravity? How does one have laws with no lawmaker? How can one have codes of detailed and complex information transmitted biologically....but no one is responsible for the information in the first place and the method of transmission was just a fluke? That is like owning a computer with a multitude of programs, but saying the computer designed itself and there was no programmer. Is that logical? Would you feel stupid claiming that?.

No-- I will note that you continue in your theme:

Argument From Ignorance Logical Fallacy
and
Argument From Incredulity Logical Fallacy.

Just because YOU lack the education to understand actual gravity, and how it works, and why?

Does not automagically mean :GODDIDIT:

Because that's what you do: YOU DO NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND.

Therefore?

GODDIDIT.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That will only happen when they are whupped by God.
I really hope they are alive when God starts whupping.
Thanks again for the Paradise reminder.

The hate runs deep in this one.

Notice how quickly she stoops to threats of INFINITE TORTURE.

How nice that is to witness.

What an UGLY and HATE-FILLED god she worships-- in that ONLY BY FORCE OR TORTURE can her god be .... "convincing".

Ain't that cute?

If atheists were at ALL worried about hell? They'd not be atheists...!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The hate runs deep in this one.
Notice how quickly she stoops to threats of INFINITE TORTURE.
How nice that is to witness.
What an UGLY and HATE-FILLED god she worships-- in that ONLY BY FORCE OR TORTURE can her god be .... "convincing".
Ain't that cute?
If atheists were at ALL worried about hell? They'd not be atheists...!

Yipes ! The ' infinite torture ' teaching I find is a Non-biblical teaching just wrongly being taught as being Scripture.
Only 'destruction awaits the wicked' as per Psalms 92:7.
No pain just non-existence because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:!7; Psalms 146:4.
To which 'hell' are you referring because the Bible's hell is simply mankind's tone-cold temporary grave.
Biblical hell is just the temporary grave for the sleeping dead - John 11:11-14; Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Please notice what happens to the Bible's hell as per Revelation 20:13-14.
After everyone in biblical hell (grave) is ' delivered up' (meaning resurrected out of hell), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic 'second death' for vacated hell.
So, No one should worry about ' hell ' whether believer or non-believer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yipes ! The ' infinite torture ' teaching I find is a Non-biblical teaching just wrongly being taught as being Scripture.
Only 'destruction awaits the wicked' as per Psalms 92:7.
No pain just non-existence because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:!7; Psalms 146:4.
To which 'hell' are you referring because the Bible's hell is simply mankind's tone-cold temporary grave.
Biblical hell is just the temporary grave for the sleeping dead - John 11:11-14; Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Please notice what happens to the Bible's hell as per Revelation 20:13-14.
After everyone in biblical hell (grave) is ' delivered up' (meaning resurrected out of hell), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic 'second death' for vacated hell.
So, No one should worry about ' hell ' whether believer or non-believer.

You do realize that by the same standards the Ark Myth is not a biblical teaching either. It is merely a morality tale that tells us of a man that kept his faith. It was never meant to be taken literally since it is obviously fantasy.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Have you ever found a cabin in the woods created by God? Has anyone? If you can show me one I'll fall on my knees and praise God.
On the other hand, are you saying that God himself patiently connects oxygen atoms to two hydrogen atoms to make a molecule of water?

No, I have never found a cabin created by God, but I have found buildings created by intelligent men.
So, to me a cabin in the woods would mean it was created or built by an intelligent person.
A cabin in the woods did Not create itself but an intelligent person did.
So, the design in nature, in outer space, shows it was done by an intelligent person.
Where there is a person, there is a mind, where there is a mind there is a personality.
God's personality shows through in our earthly home and outer space.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I have never found a cabin created by God, but I have found buildings created by intelligent men.
So, to me a cabin in the woods would mean it was created or built by an intelligent person.
A cabin in the woods did Not create itself but an intelligent person did.
So, the design in nature, in outer space, shows it was done by an intelligent person.
Where there is a person, there is a mind, where there is a mind there is a personality.
God's personality shows through in our earthly home and outer space.

Yes, real people can build real things. We have experience with this and therefore can recognize man made objects. When it comes to nature no creationist can explain why a God is necessary or why evolution could not b the answer. We have evidence for evolution. We have no evidence for a god. All that your side has are arguments from incredulity.