I just want to sin!!!

[muhammad_isa]

No it doesn't, that is just another of your straw man fallacies. It is self evident that if the outcome is know beforehand, there can be no other outcome.

You merely state the obvious.
I could say that if the outcome isn't known, then there can still be no other outcome [ than what it will be ].

Either it is known or it is not. How does whether it is known or not affect the outcome?
Come on .. stop your nonsense and answer my question.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Only people can be moral and when they read religious books and try and follow their councils and their tenets, they turn out no more moral than those who don't..

No .. I don't believe that.
All you have is "damned lies and statistics".
It doesn't fool me.

 

[epronovost]

No .. I don't believe that.
All you have is "damned lies and statistics".
It doesn't fool me.

Why would you say that those statistics are inaccurate or represent p-value fishing; how is the methodology of those studies flawed? "Damned lies and statistics" is an aphorism to describe the fact that statistics can be manipulated or even forged by poor methodology, too small sampling, imprecise questions, lack of variable control, p-value fishing, etc. It doesn't mean that statistics are inherently dishonest. On the opposite, proper statistical analysis is the golden rule of any analysis of a social phenomenon. The studies and sources I have quoted were all provided by reputable sources and their methodology was sound; they were also replicated by other studies and sources to confirm their accuracy.

It seems to me you are making a statement of faith on your own moral superiority based upon your personal appreciation of your behavior and of your faith. This to me is of an almost unbelievable level of narcissistic arrogance. It's basically claiming "I am the best because I believe I am the best and all indication of the opposite is deception". In my opinion, such an attitude is the realm of the deeply narcissists.

 

[robocop (actually)]

How are Mormons still oblivious to this? We don't want you involving us when we're dead. The Jews sueing to stop proxy/post mortem baptisms of Holocaust victims should have been a wake up call to end this practice of taking that which does not belong to you to use it for your own ends.

It is central to our religion.

 

[robocop (actually)]

How are Mormons still oblivious to this? We don't want you involving us when we're dead. The Jews sueing to stop proxy/post mortem baptisms of Holocaust victims should have been a wake up call to end this practice of taking that which does not belong to you to use it for your own ends.

See topics.lds.org "Baptisms for the Dead."

Baptisms for the Dead

"Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose."

 

[robocop (actually)]

We don't do Jews or celebrities.

I know of no current litigation against us performing this act.

ShadowWolf may believe we're torturing living people with the prospect that we will bother them after they're dead. They make their own decision post mortem.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am ever-so-often told by Christians who find out that I do not believe that a god exists, that “You are denying God because you just want to sin.” This has always struck me as a bizarre thing to say, as I cannot think of anything that a Christian would consider a sin that I would have needed to leave Christianity to do.

I mean there are lots of good Christians out there doing great things, and most of you are perfectly decent people who I would probably enjoy having as coworkers and neighbors. But seriously folks, you all sin. Every last one of you. You sin inadvertently. You sin impulsively. You sin with premeditation. You covet coworkers, neighbors, friends and random strangers. You covet their stuff and their bodies. Unless you are asexual or (possibly) greysexual, you commit adultery in your hearts, and roughly 25% of you commit adultery in your pants as a married person.

Christian employees steal quarters from their coworker’s desks to buy cokes and they steal office supplies from their employers. Christian employers don’t pay a living wage, and then call the employee lazy when they refuse to work extra hours (bearing false witness). Sometimes the employer even fires them; and while there is no ‘Thou shalt not be a jerk’ commandment, the golden rule takes a beating several times a day/

You leave your parents in nursing homes when you could move them in with you. (C’mon folks! Honor your mother and father.)

You do illegal drugs. You take the lord’s name in vain. You get divorced.

And yet, You are saved by your acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart as your own personal Lord and Saviour. Hallelujah and Amen. Sing it, Sister!

"I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb,
saved and sanctified I am.
All my sins are washed away,
I've been redeemed."​

“unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly”

So, exactly why would I need to leave Christianity to do anything? All the “sins” I might ever commit, I could commit as a Christian. And be saved.

This is already so long that I'll never be able to catch up. So, I don't know if someone has already brought this up. But the worst part of the sins that Christians do commit often times stay hidden.

And I would suspect a lot of these would have something to do with sex. Watching it. Thinking about it. Or doing it with someone that the person isn't married to. So, maybe, when a new Christian, the person confessed the sin. But then, later, oops, they did it again. Then again.

I'm sure they want to do what's right. I'm sure they want to be a good Christian. And, on the outside, can look like a good Christian. But they have a habitual thing they do that Christianity tells them is evil and is sinful. What would then be even worse is if they tell somebody how evil and sinful they are for doing the same thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

See topics.lds.org "Baptisms for the Dead."

Baptisms for the Dead

"Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose."

And yet the Jews sued to force you to leave them out of it. That should have been a wakeup call to leave everyone out of it.

 

[ppp]

This is already so long that I'll never be able to catch up. So, I don't know if someone has already brought this up. But the worst part of the sins that Christians do commit often times stay hidden.

And I would suspect a lot of these would have something to do with sex. Watching it. Thinking about it. Or doing it with someone that the person isn't married to. So, maybe, when a new Christian, the person confessed the sin. But then, later, oops, they did it again. Then again.

I'm sure they want to do what's right. I'm sure they want to be a good Christian. And, on the outside, can look like a good Christian. But they have a habitual thing they do that Christianity tells them is evil and is sinful. What would then be even worse is if they tell somebody how evil and sinful they are for doing the same thing.

I agree. It is a perfect trap for humans.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems to me you are making a statement of faith on your own moral superiority based upon your personal appreciation of your behavior and of your faith..

Well, you would say that..

The studies and sources I have quoted were all provided by reputable sources and their methodology was sound.

I had a quick look, and didn't see "the working out" .. just a few conclusions.
I don't normally take much notice of refs. as they can easily be cherry picked.
I use wikipedia, and usually take note of those, even if I don't always agree with everything they might say.

Overall, I am aware that stats can be manipulated, and so I don't have to believe something just because you say so.

Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested whether majority Christian or Muslim nations are bad examples of their faiths or not.
It says little about religions and more about the state of the world today.
Secular lifestyles are taking over the world. The result is climate-change and disease. I would like to see people getting CLOSER to G-d, and not further away.

 

[blü 2]

Then we have Martin Luther::

God does not save those who are imaginary sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe more boldly . . . It is sufficient that through the riches of the glory of God we have known the Lamb which taketh away the sins of the world. Sin would not tear us away from Him even though in a single day we commit fornication and murder a thousand and a thousand times . . . Pray boldly, for you are a very bold sinner. ("Briefwechsel," Vol. III, p. 208.)​

Cripes! Astonishing.

Thanks for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suspect that it is harrowing for some people. It sounds like you are one of them. People who are terrorized by a fear of hell (believers and ex believers both experience this) have a difficult time. I was lucky not to have been infected with that fear.

I am not afraid of the Christian hell but I am afraid of the Baha'i hell because I don't love God, the way I am supposed to, and that is what lands a Baha'i in hell. But I cannot pretend to love God, and God would know it was not sincere anyway, because God knows everything.

 

[sojourner]

Ah, but if you are Catholic, you can go to confessional, repent and be absolved.

One can repent and be absolved, even if one isn’t Catholic.

 

[epronovost]

Well, you would say that..

I had a quick look, and didn't see "the working out" .. just a few conclusions.

You had to click on the links of those conclusions to reach the original research; had you not thought about it?

Overall, I am aware that stats can be manipulated, and so I don't have to believe something just because you say so.

Since I have provided you with reputable sources with good methodology and access to other studies that confirm their results, you have no reasonable reason to not believe them. There is a difference between skepticism and denialism. You are falling for the later by providing no evidence of manipulation or counter elements. You can deny things as you wish, but that doesn't mean your denial is based on something reasonable. In fact, a rejection of evidence not based on reasonable skepticism can be seen as evidence for some morally unsavory behavior like narcissism.

Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested whether majority Christian or Muslim nations are bad examples of their faiths or not.
It says little about religions and more about the state of the world today.

So you are basically recognizing that being religious doesn't really have an impact on people's behavior and morality, which is exactly my point and that of the OP. Being religious doesn't make you good or better, but it doesn't make you worst either. The conversation isn't about religion, but the morality of religious people and more precisely that the idea that religion prevents people from acting in immoral ways is completely false.

Secular lifestyles are taking over the world. The result is climate-change and disease.

What is the link between secularism, disease and climate change? Major epidemics are less numerous and less devastating in recent years. In fact, the last major pandemic was the Spanish flu a century ago, which is a very long time by any other standard; major epidemics and pandemics used to sweep the globe much more regularly. We have eradicated in the meantime two of greatest killing disease in human history (small pox and tuberculosis) and are on the cusp of destroying a third one (polio) and that's not counting the effective treatments we have developed for a variety of deadly or crippling diseases. In human history we have never lived as long and as healthy lives as now. That's a strange argument to present.

As for climate change, it's caused by the burning of fossil fuel for the last 2 centuries. It has nothing to do with religion or lack off. It's more link to technological advancement.

As for the "secular lifestyles" taking over the world, that's actually rather false. While it's growing in Western Country, overall, as a global trend, it's rather stagnant if not decreasing slightly in terms of global presence. Islam is the fastest growing religion by a fair amount and has been doing so for decades. Statistics also show that the Muslim community itself has remained just as fervent if not even more so in recent decades. Is the world breaking apart because of it then? That would be a rather strange thing for you to say, but as climate change became truly problematic and a new pandemic started there never was as much Muslim both in raw numbers and in terms of proportion in the world. That precise demographic was growing more quickly and firmly than any other. I don't believe a single second it do be the case, but there is a correlation between the rising number and influence of Islam and a lot of other bad trends. Correlation isn't causation though.

Are you down to throwing baseless accusations of wrongdoing to a group of people without clear proofs? Is that not a sin in your religion?

 

[ppp]

I am not afraid of the Christian hell but I am afraid of the Baha'i hell because I don't love God, the way I am supposed to, and that is what lands a Baha'i in hell. But I cannot pretend to love God, and God would know it was not sincere anyway, because God knows everything.

Ow. That's tough. Is that something you can get support for from people that are inside your religion?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Secular lifestyles are taking over the world. The result is climate-change and disease. I would like to see people getting CLOSER to G-d, and not further away.

We have many Christians in America who cheer on global warming because, to them, it is prophecy being fulfilled. They won't lift a finger to avert their god's will. We also have some who don't want to do anything about STIs because if we can effectively treat and cure and prevent them then these Christians lose a scare tactic to use against sex.
Secular humanism, thus, is really better suited for addressing these issues. It's not concerned about appeasing religion or deities but about improving the quality of life for all. And it even comes entirely without a religious mandate to be charitable.

 

[ppp]

One can repent and be absolved, even if one isn’t Catholic.

I am aware. I was responding to a specific line of thinking.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Being religious doesn't make you good or better, but it doesn't make you worst either.

Christianity is the sole source of learned hatred I had for LGBT. In this regard, yes, it did make me a worse person. It's also where I learned misogyny. And that Christians should work to make society "godly," including infringing upon the rights of others and intruding into affairs where one doesn't belong.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg.

 

[robocop (actually)]

And yet the Jews sued to force you to leave them out of it. That should have been a wakeup call to leave everyone out of it.

Here's why we do it:

First of all, we don't want to torture anyone and we believe we are actually being kind. We are following the golden rule and I assure you my intent is pure.

Second, speaking of Jews, what do the last two verses of the Old Testament say?

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:”

“And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”

Uniting families eternally is our business.

Third, it makes better cities. I feel that when a Temple gets established in a city, it creates better people all around it.

For these 3 reasons, I believe that if it does good, it should not be shut down.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you are basically recognizing that being religious doesn't really have an impact on people's behavior and morality..

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that your definition of "religious people" is flawed.

What is the link between secularism, disease and climate change?

You can start a thread on the topic if you wish..

As for climate change, it's caused by the burning of fossil fuel for the last 2 centuries.

You don't say?
..and tracing the causal chain, that in turn goes back to the industrial revolution and then the Reformation.

As for the "secular lifestyles" taking over the world, that's actually rather false..

Really?
Would you say that China is becoming more "westernised" or not?
It certainly has little to with Christianity or Islam.