I just want to sin!!!

[robocop (actually)]

That's hard to believe when it required being sued to stop doing it.

Rapist tend to use that same logic. They didn't say no, so that doesn't mean it was without consent. Or there was no resistance so that was consent.

Sorry I can't keep talking forever when it goes nowhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We don't want to do missionary work to Jews in the afterlife or in Israel. We obey honor and respect the law.

It shouldn't have come to that in the first place. If your Church really respected the Jews then there wouldn't have been proxy baptisms of them in the first place.

 

[robocop (actually)]

You have no idea. You are just blindly lobbing a grenade into a room you have never looked in.

Sorry I can't keep talking forever when it goes nowhere. We have had revelation about the afterlife.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry I can't keep talking forever when it goes nowhere.

I don't think your Church wants this to go anywhere, because for years I've been here they just can't comprehend why people dislike this practice and want their name entirely left out of it.
No is very easy to understand. Your Church, however, keeps asking why, keeps insisting on doing it, and then does it anyway.

 

[ppp]

Sorry I can't keep talking forever when it goes nowhere. We have had revelation about the afterlife.

uh huh.

 

[Sheldon]

A living person could probably tell us not to do them after they're dead.

Or you could show some common decency, the sheer arrogance of it all, sounds pretty tacky to me. Like those theists who insist on falsely claiming famous and outspoken atheists converted on their death beds, even the Hitch wasn't safe.

 

[ppp]

Or you could show some common decency, the sheer arrogance of it all, sounds pretty tacky to me. Like those theists who insist on falsely claiming famous and outspoken atheists converted on their death beds, even the Hitch wasn't safe.

Tacky. Excellent word.

 

[Sheldon]

I know you argue that the future can be only one outcome if it is known, but it can only be one outcome if it is NOT known as well.

However if a deity knows that single outcome, before it happens, then we have no free will to affect it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A living person could probably tell us not to do them after they're dead.

I've tried several times. Church officials won't even get a hold of me when I ask how to keep myself out of their proxy baptisms.

 

[ppp]

However if a deity knows that single outcome, before it happens, then we have no free will to affect it.

if the deity is omnipotent and created the universe, then he made the choice for that event to occur. He intentionally created the exact universe where that event was inevitable.

 

[robocop (actually)]

It shouldn't have come to that in the first place. If your Church really respected the Jews then there wouldn't have been proxy baptisms of them in the first place.

Final response: Jesus Himself was rejected by the Jews, and yet He was a Jew.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I don't think your Church wants this to go anywhere, because for years I've been here they just can't comprehend why people dislike this practice and want their name entirely left out of it.
No is very easy to understand. Your Church, however, keeps asking why, keeps insisting on doing it, and then does it anyway.

Closing remark: Well I understand what you are saying.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Or you could show some common decency, the sheer arrogance of it all, sounds pretty tacky to me. Like those theists who insist on falsely claiming famous and outspoken atheists converted on their death beds, even the Hitch wasn't safe.

Closing remark: The "arrogance" comes from the fact that this has been revealed to us.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I've tried several times. Church officials won't even get a hold of me when I ask how to keep myself out of their proxy baptisms.

Closing remark: Then they probably assume they aren't harming you because you can reject the ordinance when it happens.

But what if you changed your mind after you were dead? Then you would have an opportunity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Final response: Jesus Himself was rejected by the Jews, and yet He was a Jew.

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Closing remark: Well I understand what you are saying.

Then why is it so hard to understand and accept people don't want to be proxy baptized, and why not respect that by at least making it easier to establish a "leave me out of it" list? Or better yet, just don't do it without clearly stated consent.

Closing remark: Then they probably assume they aren't harming you because you can reject the ordinance when it happens.

But what if you changed your mind after you were dead? Then you would have an opportunity.

They would be doing this against my wishes. I have no say at that point. Your church would just do it.

 

[epronovost]

Not really?
It seems to me that it has embraced western values, with its skyscrapers and heavily populated cities and increasing urbanisation and industrialisation.
I suppose "westernised" is not the appropriate term?

Heavily populated cities are a staple of Eastern civilization. The largest city in history is Tokyo and has been the reigning champion in that domain on and off for the last 400 years, competing with Beijing, London and Mexico. Hell, for a good while the most urbanized area in the world was the Middle East and that's where cities were born.

Industrialization isn't inherently western either, the technology that allowed the concentration and streamlining of manufacturing did appeared in Europe, but the idea of concentrating manufacturing and automating it as much as possible to accelerate production can be seen from Antiquity mostly for the production of war material. In the 15th and 16th century China, there was a form pseudo-industrialization but then war and internal division slowed down the spread of such techniques.

You seem indeed to be conflating "modern" with "western" as if non-western civilization were backward, peasants while only the western world advanced scientifically and economically. It's a rather insulting view of both the West, reducing its contribution to humanity to technologies and economics, ignoring their contribution in philosophy, arts, religious thoughts, politics and insulting to the East by ignoring their contribution in the development of science and economics. It's also attributing a certain "evil" to modernity that is strongly stereotypical. Ecological devastation was already a staple of pre-industrial societies. Many a species of animal and plants were brought to extinction by human predation and climatic changes were brought by humans even in pre-industrial times, mostly caused by deforestation for agricultural needs. Sure, the development of industries, the extensive use of fossil fuel and the demographic explosion of the 19th and 20th century accelerated those process massively, but secularism has little to do with it. Religion isn't hostile to free human reproduction, far from it, and isn't hostile to industrialization or the overwhelming majority of scientific development either.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Because people don't always know in this life what they'll know in the next.

Call it "baptism if wanted."

 

[epronovost]

Closing remark: Then they probably assume they aren't harming you because you can reject the ordinance when it happens.

But what if you changed your mind after you were dead? Then you would have an opportunity.

How does your Church know if I agreed post-mortem to a baptism before they conducted it? I doubt that the LDS Church asked the authorization of Joseph Stalin before they baptize him; it's also a strange choice of person to baptize in your Church, but I guess if you do Hitler, and you did, you might as well do him and while your at it throw a bone to Gengis Khan, which you also did. At least when Catholics canonize people who are dead, they do it to their own members not some unrelated people who might not want to be associated with the strange rituals design by 19th century American conman.

 

[Sheldon]

What we believe we're doing to the dead is nothing. We don't make them do anything.

They can choose to convert. We don't assume just because we've done their work that they've converted.

Exactly, it's your belief not theirs. It's not your choice to make, no matter how you dress this up it is simply wrong, and that is from an atheist, who thinks you might as well get a witch doctor to put a curse on them after they die.

 

[robocop (actually)]

How does your Church know if I agreed post-mortem to a baptism before they conducted it? I doubt that the LDS Church asked the authorization of Joseph Stalin before they baptize him; it's also a strange choice of person to baptize in your Church, but I guess if you do Hitler, and you did, you might as well do him and while your at it throw a bone to Gengis Khan, which you also did. At least when Catholics canonize people who are dead, they do it to their own members not some unrelated people who might not want to be associated with the strange rituals design by 19th century American conman.

For the 25th time, they don't have to accept the baptism, and we don't know if they've accepted the baptism, except rarely people believe it's revealed to them.