waitasec
Veteran Member
show me one post where i was dishonest...
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i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
show me one post where i was dishonest...
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Since you do not want to go back to the OP---Just from #131 will suffice.
The dishonesty is seen in the assumptive claims made with those "If" claims. Your false/dishonest/conclusions are based upon your supplied "IF" rather than the in context agreement of the reports. Also, your assumed conclusion that all four of the individually written reports had to word for word agree with each other and your own false conclusions/ "preconceived ideas" which are contrary to their accounts.
You refuse to see the truths of the text shown to you and claim
.
Thank you! Matt.5:11, "Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
waitasec
Veteran Member
these?
if:
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
If - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
you are the one who claims that peter and the disciples were considered to be jesus friends
as you used a passage in john to support that claim, did you not?
and in that passage jesus says he revealed to them all what god revealed to jesus...does it not?
then in light of that knowledge, in the event that what you say is true, on the assumption that what you are saying is true or based on that condition....why did they put up a fight knowing they were to hand jesus over to the betrayer?
questions by the way are not lies...
a conclusion cannot be a lie either...
it is a reasoned judgment
Conclusion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
because you set up a quandry for yourself...by claiming that the servants are not earthly servants jesus was referring to and that the disciples knew what was happening yet they asked if they should draw their swords...
why do you suppose they asked that question in light of that knowledge, in the event that what you say is true, on the assumption that what you are saying is true or based on that condition that jesus told them what was going to happen?
you should read more...these are not my claims these are ideas that have been brought to my attention via bart ehrman,
Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and this
Watch The Full Program Online | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS
for which you purposely choose to :ignore:
so your willingness to remain ignorant is noted.
good grief...you sound like my mother...
btw this is 131...
then why ask whether or not to draw out the swords when they were waiting?
why is it so important if jesus gave up willingly or not that would cause someone to be willfully ignorant of the obviously stated?
jesus was scared...an interesting thing for god to feel...don'tcha think?
regardless, the disciples still asked if they should draw their swords...why?
one did and cut the ear off a servant... so in light of that knowledge, in the event that what you say is true, on the assumption that what you are saying is true or based on that condition did they know they were waiting for the betrayer...?
doesn't look like it...it looks like they were trying to get away as jesus said...lets :run: in mark, matthew and luke...
no lies just a question for you to come to terms with, thats all.
have fun...
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
And I think you're confused, so there you go.
waitasec
Veteran Member
And I think you're confused, so there you go.
think what you like...
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
waitasec
Veteran Member
what ever floats your boat...Exactly, that's why there's no reason to take your OP seriously.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Just starters!
From the OP, your first two words were "I Think" and then added your wrong "conclusions" on that thinking of "Ifs" and "Whys" assumed by you to be what was happening.
I see from this present acknowledgment that your arguments are really not your own, but those of "other critics".
waitasec, I didn't give you answers from another human, but gave you the accounts as written by the Disciples---and those are what you "purposely choose to :ignore:".
When a question is couched in language which includes a false assumption/statement/etc. and then asked as if the assumption was a true fact--- it is a lie.
"THEY" didn't "put up a fight". Only one person acted impulsively, NOT WAITING for a command to act. There was no assumption on my part. The scriptures were posted as written. The events happened. But your assumptions as to why---is what is false.
Jesus wasn't resisting arrest or fleeing to prevent HIS Arrest. And had it not been time for the fulfillment of the Prophecies and HIS Crucifixion. Yes, HE could have called for the 12 legions of angels.
A lot of "conclusions" are based on faulty reasoning/judgment and are therefore, lies.
It is those who place their lives in the hands of other men's opinions that are the "ignorant" ones. The Scriptures are the true guidelines for long life and happiness.
good grief...you sound like my mother...
Then more power to your mother.
Answered above. I don't have any conflicts to "come to terms with"---You are the one who refuse to Reson of Truth from the Scriptures.
waitasec
Veteran Member
and...?
are you saying that critical thinking is irrelevant when it comes to the gospels?
and that people are automatically liars when they question it? :areyoucra
sooooo...
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
not really, this is my argument. you can say that my argument was inspired by questioning what doesn't add up, reading the POV of bible scholars and my own education at bible school...
for what it's worth...
.
well that point is actually moot...
besides what exactly are the disciples? are they non human?
your desperate attempt of skirting the question is showing.
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
you mean this question:
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
fine they didn't put up a fight the question still remains...
why did they ask to draw their swords knowing they were waiting for judas to come and hand jesus over to the authorities?
you can say that again, i'm still waiting for you to come up with an argument... thus far all you've been doing is skirting the question:
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
and this has to do with the question in question how?
another attempt to skirt the question:
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
my mom is a very fearful person
soooooo
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
then answer the question...
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
:beach:
sincerly
Well-Known Member
"Critical thinking" can be as you are doing in your posts. Making every effort to tear down the Truths of the Gospels to be just myths/"confusion". Or it can be as I have shown, All facets of the witness acounts as recorded to fit and understand the True Message which was given/Recorded by the Four Writers.
The above question is vague/confusing. You have repeated the same wording eight times, Clarify.
waitasec
Veteran Member
how is this a rebuttal?
are we in the biblical debating section?
this isn't a rebuttal, this is a cop out.
did jesus reveal everything god revealed to his disciples?
John 15:15,"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
did jesus know he was going to be betrayed?
were jesus and his friends waiting for judas to come and hand over jesus to the authorities in gethsemane?
why did they ask to draw their swords had jesus revealed EVERYTHING god revealed to jesus after jesus says:
41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”?
knowing they were waiting for jesus to be handed over to the authorities they asked to draw their swords...why ask jesus if they should draw their swords...didn't jesus reveal everything god had revealed to jesus, weren't they waiting for this to happen, wasn't this the purpose to stay awake and not fall under the temptation of falling asleep?
i think i made the question clear enough for you to understand it...
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords had jesus told them they were waiting for judas to come and hand him over to the authorities?
i'll save you the trouble....
:ignore:
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Yes, on both accounts.
There is no "cop out" as I answered your comment.
Yes, and HE gave that information to the Apostles/Diciples. The lastest was two days previously, as recorded in Matt.26:2. "Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified."
Jesus was, but the Disciples were as seen in John 13:26-28, "Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him."
There was no doubt, in the mission of Jesus, by Jesus. The doubt is supplied by you in adding "false light" to their actions based upon the preconceived Idea by the Disciples that Jesus was to free the nation of Israel from the power of the Roman empire. Their actions were in agreement with their question/belief seen in Acts 1:6-7, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. "
That last comment by Jesus answers your recent built strawman comcerning "EVERYTHING" and "all things". They were given the things needed to know for their and our redemption.
Answered above. NO, the staying "awake"/give strict attention/be cautious, was in Response to Jesus telling Peter that before the night was over---Peter would "deny Jesus three times". Just as did happen.
The problem with the topic is your supplied "I think". That "false light" in which you couch your erroneous conclusions.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
right, and then later he said in chapter 15,"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
so according to john 15 the disciples were in on it as jesus revealed what was happening, or are you just going to pay attention to what conveniently fits your little flawed argument while :ignore: what jesus said in john 15:15? "for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth"
there is no strawman. as i pointed out your argument doesn't work as what happened in chapter 15 happened after what happened in chapter 13...
or are you that desperate that you are going to say these events didn't happen in that sequence...
so
in the event that what john 15:!5 is true, on the assumption that what john 15:15 has jesus saying or based on that condition of what jesus said in john 15:15...did the disciples know they were waiting for the betrayer and hand jesus over to the authorities....?
what you are quoting in acts has nothing to do with the thread...
this is the context you so conveniently left out bub...
after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
this is after
yet another epic failure.
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
As you claimed, the points below specified are those from your "source". They are hedged in the "false light" of insinuations and preconceived opinions. Those are the "flawed arguments"/"false light" from supplied added comments/opinions.
As John wrote(John 13:28), "Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him." But you are wanting John to lie in what Jesus is telling those Disciples during the same night BEFORE they went into the Garden and the arrest took place. The "all things"(whatsoever I have told you) that were made known to the Disciples were the things which they were to give "unto all the world". The disciples Mission was made known to them. However that which Judas, had covenented with the Peiest and Scribes and was in his heart the Disciples did not Know as John clearly wrote . And your source added "false light" to misconstrue the true message.
The context of these Recordings aren't for my convience, but are the true facts for all to see and place the confidence in----Jesus voluntarily died on the Cross so that those who truly believe Jesus is the Saviour redeemer may LIVE.
Why should I Not believe that Jesus who was to be Crucified shortly not strengthen and encourage HIS Apostles during the last minutes before HE "went forth" to meet (those who cometh thither"), those who would ask and demand that Jesus be "Crucified".
see above.
You don't want it to, but their preconceived ideas do play an important part in their actions at the arrest.
Your "false light" accusation of conviently leaving out" doesn't change any of the facts. Luke attests to the fact that, as with the Gospel of Luke, the Truth of the Scriptures were here, also, being put into prespective of True facts of the Acts by Jesus, the Apostles and the Scriptures.
Forty days later, the Apostles were still under the impression that Jesus was to free the nation of Israel from Roman oppression.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i'm only asking a question that doesn't seem to fit in light of your flawed argument.
funny i see no support for this baseless claim...typical
what does john 15:15 say?
you know what it says, in fact you were so sure of what it said you used that same passage as an argument against mine...how embarrassing it must be for you...
which is also why i wonder why they asked jesus if they should draw their swords had jesus encouraged them...silly.
yet they were told and jesus said if his kingdom was an earthly kingdom his servants will try to prevent his arrest.. :sorry1: that's what the narrative laid out
did jesus reveal the plan before he was arrested...you claim jesus knew and jesus claims he revealed all that was revealed to him to the disciples...
so if jesus revealed the plan it doesn't really make that much sense to ASK if they should draw their swords
your desperate argument of "unto the world" is quite laughable...
here is the entire passage...and not surprisingly your argument fails because there is no mention of what they were to give "unto all the world"...
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’[c]
where does it say what god jesus revealed to his disciples was what they were to give "unto all the world"?
or are willing to say they didn't know who sent jesus?
we are not talking about 40 days later...focus...your moving goal posts again.
we are talking about the moment jesus was being handed over to the betrayer...was it done willfully or not...i'm guessing no since they asked to draw their swords...
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Waitasec, It isn't the "question", but your assumed preconceived erroneous comment which "doesn't fit in the light of the context" of the Gospel recordings. Your drapings of "false light" to distort will not do it. It is your own surmizings which are flawed and you can't project those on me.
One can not see what they don't want to see. Neither did the Jewish leaders want to see that they were fulfilling prophecies by their actions.
The embarrassment should be by you in insisting that your manipulated comments are fact.
Which makes the point above.
Jesus had been teaching the Disciples for three and a half years. "all things", "Everything", which He had heard from the Father----Those things are what (Matt.28:19-20; Mark 16:15) the Disciples were commanded to teach all Nations., "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:..."
They were still being encouraged and instructed(And Jesus was praying to HIS Father) in John13 through John17.
Acts1:6, is explanatory of the "all things", "Everything" which "was told". That which is necessary to complete the teaching one is to give. Other things are still in the "not needed to know" category.
No!! The verse(18:36) was a conversation between Jesus and Pilate. Not the Disciples. There was no "IF" in the real cutting off of the ear. Peter was told to "put up the sword"(Matt.26:52), which Peter used without permission. And the "servants"( you took from John18:36) were Angels which Jesus told Peter HE could obtain from the Father by prayer.
Your concocted "narrative was falsely laid out".
The records of the Gospels are plain. So where are you at in your confusion? Whose "plan" are you having a problem with---the one you concocted?? No sense to you that they "ASKED"???
Answered above. and you failed to include chapters 16+17.
See above.
Waitasec, The Disciples and Jesus knows who sent Jesus. You need to read v.21 again with understanding.
Sorry, but your "guess" is wrong. Just as your "thinking from the first. Jesus didn't lift a finger in resisting that mob. HE was in Charge of the situation. Not Peter. Jesus wanted to know who that mob was planning to take back with them, but HE was "led as a lamb to the slaughter". The record is that the disciples "scattered" as was prophesied.
waitasec
Veteran Member
a context that is irreconcilable in and of itself.
tell me about it....
i didn't manipulate anything....you did, as i pointed out.
interesting how you continually fail to support you silly claims.
your willingness to ignore the obvious is noted.
all means everything. did jesus know he was going to be handed over to the authorities? :yes: did the disciples know they were waiting for the betrayer to hand jesus over to the authorities :no:
therefore jesus didn't reveal "all" to his friends. your manipulation of the scriptures is also noted.
he's talking about his disciples silly...
there are no angels in john 18:36...clearly you are not thinking this through...
in the event that his talking about angeles, on the assumption that jesus is talking about angeles, why would angels fight for an earthly kingdom?
angels would fight for an unearthly kingdom because they are unearthly...:areyoucra:areyoucrathe plan that he would be handed to the authorities..silly
something the disciples were not aware of thusly contradicting what jesus said in john 15:15
so did you...
so prove it. did jesus say he considered his disciples as his friends because the servants do not know what the master is up to?
they were in the dark about jesus KNOWING he was to be handed over to the authorities.
did they know why he was sent or did jesus forget to tell them?
we are not talking about what jesus actions were...
we are talking about the disciples...
their attempt to prevent jesus' arrest....don't you remember silly, they asked if they should draw their swords...
or did you willingly ignore that little detail?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Waitasec, The Four Gospels are/have been the recordings by four writers and concerning the Life/activities and teachings of Jesus Christ and why HE came to earth. They each wrote the accounts of eyewitnesses( Two personal and two as obtained from others who were eyewitnesses.) They each expressed the details as they were impressed to record the various aspects of/for the 3 1/2 years of The Ministry Of Jesus and some from the birth of Jesus. Therefore, while they are focused on/with the same "Principles and events" during the Life of Jesus, they can't be expected to use the same words or give the same details exactly alike. That wasn't their goal. Just as Luke stated in (1:1-3). "what we most suredly believe".
Your belief is: """"i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were """". None of the writers have written or condemned the views presented by the others. John expressed the reason best in John 21:25, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Therefore, what is written in the context of the Four Gospels is what has been said about the subject in all of them. Not just in one. And to claim that one verse in one chapter of one of the Gospels tells the whole fact is erroneous. Just as trying to merge a verse in each of two different/separate books as being the same when they just have some simularities.
Waitasec, (from the blueletterbible organization):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sortssome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).
That includes "all things" and "everything" as well---just as Acts1:6 denotes--"Not for you to know".
Matt.26:2 Jesus speaking, "Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified".
It was not for the disciples to "hand over Jesus". Jesus denounced Peter's action and HIS (Matt26:54) words indicate that HE expected the Scriptures to be fulfilled---not thwarted.(HE wouldn't even call for the 12 legions of angels) "But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
What Jesus is saying to Peter is your actions are interfering with the whole plan of salvation. Just as Jesus said to Pilate, "For this cause came I into the world."
Yes, Jesus had told them(including Peter) HE was to be betrayed and CRUCIFIED.
As Jesus plainly stated, "My kingdom is not of this world:" That/HIS "Kingdom is still being set up"--Another subject. And Jesus was saying "IF" HIS Kingdom were presently of this world, then those servants of that kingdom would fight as needed.
The speculation is moot.
As shown, there was no "plan for the disciples to hand Jesus to the Authorities". That is/was concocted in your imagination.
I see you didn't read it; or didn't understand it. (15:20-21) "...If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they(those who are persecuting you) do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him(GOD THE FATHER) that sent me."
We are discussing the events of Jesus' last hours before HIS Crucifixion which also includes HIS Actions and interactions with Peter.
We are, also, discussing your confusions about the events. Jesus was unresistive to the going forth with the arrest and the crucification. The Disciples had been informed. However, Peter wasn't thinking correctly that night because he not only acted on impulse/impetuously , but Denied his LORD three times.
waitasec
Veteran Member
your ducking technique is getting old....
each author wrote for a different audience...
i still don't see how this has to do with the disciples not knowing why jesus was turing himself in...
why did the disciples ask to draw their swords?
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you are saying if jesus' kingdom were of this world angels would come and fight for it?
:areyoucra
so who would fight if his kingdom were not of this world...his disciples?
:biglaugh:
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:biglaugh:
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:biglaugh:
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