i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

[waitasec]

The Truth of the Scriptures do "placate"----It is those "unbiased scholars" who only speak lies that turn me off.

so it boils down to you not feeling comfortable....
makes sense.

 

[waitasec]

:beach:

 

[connermt]

john18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

but then we have...

luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.


...49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.


so then why did he ask his servants to get swords and why did his servants fight if his kingdom was not of this world?

You're comparing one gospel to another. They don't always agree with each other. Even though they are supposed to be telling the same story.
The reason?
Different people writing the same story at different times. No god involved.

 

[sincerly]

First, John Didn't write anything about the "in the garden" events before the encounter of the two groups. Second, The "praying" and instructions/admonitions/etc. which John recorded was done "on the way" from the passover site to that garden.
You will be able to "get how"---only when you quit trying to make the four Gospels fit into your/Ehrman's falsely contrived conclusions.

i get it when i read unbiased scholars...however it seems you prefer to be placated...

The Truth of the Scriptures do "placate"----It is those "unbiased scholars" who only speak lies that turn me off.

so it boils down to you not feeling comfortable....
makes sense.

Your reasoning and assumption conclusion above is why this topic has lasted this long. To the contrary, I don't feel "uncomfortable. If fact, the Scriptures strengthen my resolve to Abide in their Truths rather than so called "scholars" who misrepresent the Scriptures.

Enjoy the beach while you can.

 

[sincerly]

You're comparing one gospel to another. They don't always agree with each other. Even though they are supposed to be telling the same story.
The reason?
Different people writing the same story at different times. No god involved.

Hi Conner, Waitasec does have a reason as she said somewhere. She was once a believer, but like Ehrman, is now spreading what both "claim" are contradictions to discredit the Truth of the BIBLE.

As you wrote, """Different people writing the same story at different times. No god involved""", but there is a more pressing reason as Luke wrote in the preface of his Gospel concerning the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. """"..to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us." Why? Many of those witnesses were dying off---including apostles. Also, Paul, If he hadn't been martyred by time of Luke's writing.
The Early believers believed that Jesus Christ was to return during their life-time.
There is no scripture which states that the Scriptures are a "word for word" record (dictated) from the Holy Spirit. The Messages which were to be given to the people was given to the prophets and they conveyed that message/principles in their own language/words to the people. Same with the "Gospels".

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by sincerly
First, John Didn't write anything about the "in the garden" events before the encounter of the two groups.

doesn't make up for the fact that jesus was talking to his disciples to stay awake in the synoptic gospels as john has jesus approaching judas asking them who they were looking for

Second, The "praying" and instructions/admonitions/etc. which John recorded was done "on the way" from the passover site to that garden.

yes and?
chapter 15 and 16...33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
chapter 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

no mention of the sleepy disciples...none...it's not a matter of omission its a matter of context.

You will be able to "get how"---only when you quit trying to make the four Gospels fit into your/Ehrman's falsely contrived conclusions.

as you still dodge the question, why did they asked to draw their swords knowing they were to meet with the betrayer in the synoptic gospels?

 

[waitasec]

The Early believers believed that Jesus Christ was to return during their life-time.

gee, i wonder why...

There is no scripture which states that the Scriptures are a "word for word" record (dictated) from the Holy Spirit. The Messages which were to be given to the people was given to the prophets and they conveyed that message/principles in their own language/words to the people. Same with the "Gospels".

i noticed you dodged my question about irenaeus...
do you even know who that is?

 

[Muffled]

if jesus' kingdom is not of this world, then yes, the inconsistencies found in the other gospels do invalidate his view...

because there is no way we can validate what jesus said...

he may, but that doesn't mean anything...this gospel was written 60 to 70 yrs after jesus... and of course folklore and legends linger and change.

you can't move goal posts here...jesus was able to predict the rooster crowing 3 times, but couldn't see his servants were going to fight or that he was attempting to flee to prevent his arrest?


actually, according to luke there were 2 swords
again, your moving goal posts. this is what jesus said in john...


“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

i also pointed out where jesus was preventing his arrest too...by his attempt to flee...in the gospel of mark.

and may i also point out that when jesus was praying, he asked his servants to be on the look out and asked them not to sleep.

and? what makes it dangerous? the fact that it was a worldly danger a cler and present danger of the flesh....wasn't that the point of jesus dying in the first place?

There is no way that anyone can validate what anyone said. However the record of what He said is there and that is what we go by. Therefore there is no invalidation because what He said is consistent.

It doesn't matter when they were written because those who wrote them had the Paraclete to help them remember. For that reason it is not like folklore and legend which may change.

Of course Jesus knew that Peter would use the sword. That was the whole point to teach Peter the futility of fighting. All the other disciples fled and Jesus encouraged them to do so. If Jesus were attempting to flee He would not have been there but would have been long gone.

Jesus is telling the truth. By the time Jesus is speaking to Pilot there is no fighting. This isn't a general principle just a statement of fact. It is also a fact that Jesus never encouraged His disciples to set up a worldly kingdom.

The context is not that of watching for enemies but of keeping vigil with Jesus to help Him in His time of need.

There is a danger to a fledgling church. If all the disciples were killed who would have told the story written in the Gospels? How would the church have grown? The Kingdom itself would still exist but the subjects of the Kingdom would not. What kind of kingdom is it that has no subjects? I suppose the answer would have to be a spiritual kingdom since the subjects are spirits.

 

[Muffled]

You're comparing one gospel to another. They don't always agree with each other. Even though they are supposed to be telling the same story.
The reason?
Different people writing the same story at different times. No god involved.

I don't find this to be the case. Do you have any examples?

This is an assumption lacking evidence.

 

[Muffled]

For they are "4" different Gospels, they are "4" completion different "Jesus"
each Four being Played Individually by "Mark-Matthew-Luke-John", that contains a slight different Thesis.

Mark (Original, Greek Style Jewish Hero)
Matthew (emphasis on Anti-Jewish Agenda, OT Plaigerism/Josephus)
John (written as Against Marcion)
Luke-Acts (fattened up with OT Plaigerism/Josephus/Homer)

It is impossible for Mark-Matthew-John-Luke/Acts to be all right at same
time, so you must pick the 1 out of 4

There is no evidence to support those attributions (in parenthesis). OT references I will admit.

What you think is possible doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence that they aren't right?

I have seen no evidence of this.

 

[waitasec]

There is no way that anyone can validate what anyone said. However the record of what He said is there and that is what we go by. Therefore there is no invalidation because what He said is consistent.

right. the record that you go by cannot be validated.

It doesn't matter when they were written because those who wrote them had the Paraclete to help them remember. For that reason it is not like folklore and legend which may change.

however, there are irreconcilable differences because no one can validate what he said...see how that works?

Of course Jesus knew that Peter would use the sword. That was the whole point to teach Peter the futility of fighting. All the other disciples fled and Jesus encouraged them to do so. If Jesus were attempting to flee He would not have been there but would have been long gone.

then why did they attempt to prevent his arrest?
show me where jesus encouraged the disciples to flee...
as the narrative stands in john, jesus is supposedly a willing sacrifice while mark and matthew portray jesus as scared
as we read in thy synoptic gospels, he was hiding out, which is why he asked the disciples to stay awake..."to keep watch"
if jesus wasn't hiding out why did he ask the disciples to stay awake to watch him pray by himself...?

mark 14:34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.

this is not consistent with the confident picture john paints of jesus

john 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

2 very different scenes. fear in the synoptic narratives and not a word of fear in johns account. not one. read chapter 17...not even a mention of the sleepy disciples where in mark 14, matthew 26 and luke 22 it's an important part of the story. in the gospels jesus gets up 3 times to wake them up to watch him pray...? no. he wanted them to look out for the betrayer which is consistent as to why they asked to reach for their swords when they were caught.

Jesus is telling the truth. By the time Jesus is speaking to Pilot there is no fighting. This isn't a general principle just a statement of fact. It is also a fact that Jesus never encouraged His disciples to set up a worldly kingdom.

by the time he was speaking to pilot it was over so of course there was no fighting...besides his disciples tried to prevent him from being arrested because every narrative says they did.

The context is not that of watching for enemies but of keeping vigil with Jesus to help Him in His time of need.

then why keep watch? and the the synoptic gospels all have him yelling, get up lets go here comes my betrayer!!

There is a danger to a fledgling church. If all the disciples were killed who would have told the story written in the Gospels? How would the church have grown? The Kingdom itself would still exist but the subjects of the Kingdom would not. What kind of kingdom is it that has no subjects? I suppose the answer would have to be a spiritual kingdom since the subjects are spirits.

doesn't add up though...the point was to die in the flesh to be with god.
the disciples would be killed and their disciples would be killed...heck they were fed to the lions so i don't particularly understand your argument here.
what is the point of a growing church if the point is to die in the flesh, to get to heaven.

luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[waitasec]

I don't find this to be the case. Do you have any examples?

here are some..
did jesus get kissed in john?
was he kissed in the synoptic gospels?

did jesus approach judas in the synoptic gospels?
did jesus approach judas in john?

in john, what is the focus of this scene in gethsemane, his prayer or waking up the disciples?
in the synoptics, what is the focus of this scene in gethsemane, his prayer or waking up the disciples?

what was jesus doing when judas arrived in the synoptic gospels...?
what was jesus doing when they were met up by judas in john?

 

[connermt]

Hi Conner, Waitasec does have a reason as she said somewhere. She was once a believer, but like Ehrman, is now spreading what both "claim" are contradictions to discredit the Truth of the BIBLE.

As you wrote, """Different people writing the same story at different times. No god involved""", but there is a more pressing reason as Luke wrote in the preface of his Gospel concerning the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. """"..to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us." Why? Many of those witnesses were dying off---including apostles. Also, Paul, If he hadn't been martyred by time of Luke's writing.
The Early believers believed that Jesus Christ was to return during their life-time.
There is no scripture which states that the Scriptures are a "word for word" record (dictated) from the Holy Spirit. The Messages which were to be given to the people was given to the prophets and they conveyed that message/principles in their own language/words to the people. Same with the "Gospels".

My response was sarcasam, not an effort to refute or prove what I quoted.
I too am lucky enough to be a former believer. I too will do everything I can to point out the flaws and illogical reasoning that supports this bible (though I can't do more than the bible and its followed does/do already).
The FACT is, no matter what people like to believe, that the bible is a book of stories written by men. One can believe it's an accurate representation of god/jesus written by god, but there's no proof of that.
Another FACT is that there are other books written about jesus that didn't make the "bible cut" due to the editing of flawed, imperfect men.
We can rationalize these facts all we want into a perfect little bubble that allows us to believe what we want. But that doesn't change the facts, or lack thereof.

 

[connermt]

I don't find this to be the case. Do you have any examples?

This is an assumption lacking evidence.

Do some reasearch on the authors.
Read the gospels and compare the stories.
Reasearch is fun!

 

[waitasec]

Reasearch is fun!

:tigger:

 

[connermt]

:tigger:

Depends on who you are doing it with.....

 

[sincerly]

doesn't make up for the fact that jesus was talking to his disciples to stay awake in the synoptic gospels as john has jesus approaching judas asking them who they were looking for

Waitasec, What is written in one's recording of an event neither confirms nor denies what is written by another writer concerning that same event. No matter how many times you claim "contradictions" they were supplied by you and your manipulations and not on the Context of "EACH" Gospel, written by each of the writers.

John never wrote or denied that he, James and Peter didn't accompany Jesus "further"; nor anything about their sleeping; nor that Judas did or didn't Kiss Jesus; ---The context of John doesn't have those details; but that isn't a "contradiction". YOUR "claim" is meant to deceive/distort the BIBLE as untrue---as you have indicated/along with Ehrman.

chapter 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

no mention of the sleepy disciples...none...it's not a matter of omission its a matter of context.

Since it isn't there, IT ISN"T CONTEXT. To say it is a "contradiction' is to claim an erroneous falsehood. Just as is the "claiming" a supplied own erronous conclusion/ assumption to a valid reason.

Where is this recorded Prayer (on the way to the garden) recorded in the other Gospels??? Or the """chapter 15 and 16...33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”""???

as you still dodge the question, why did they asked to draw their swords knowing they were to meet with the betrayer in the synoptic gospels?

Just because the answer I have given voids your false claims, doesn't mean I have "dodged anything". Only one of two swords was drawn/used and that by Peter.
Waitasec, Matt.16:21-27, has this information. "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.""

Matt.26:31-35, "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. Peter answered and said unto him, Though all [men] shall be offended because of thee, [yet] will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples."

Now look at Luke 22:31-32 , "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

Matt.26:40-41, "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.. "

Matthew is consistent in that Satan was to use Peter'simpulsive attitude and idea that Jesus was to restore the Nation of israel from the Roman rule(see acts1:6). This was contrary to the Reason Jesus came into this world. Which was to Seek and save the Lost (to Sin) of mankind through HIS Death which at this time was within 24 hours.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, What is written in one's recording of an event neither confirms nor denies what is written by another writer concerning that same event.

if one account portrays jesus as brave and another one doesn't, then it very probable that one or both accounts are not accurate.
:sorry1:

 

[waitasec]

Since it isn't there, IT ISN"T CONTEXT. To say it is a "contradiction' is to claim an erroneous falsehood. Just as is the "claiming" a supplied own erronous conclusion/ assumption to a valid reason.

sure it is..one context has jesus tell the disciples to stay awake and is approached by judas another one has jesus walk up to judas...
one account shows jesus was hiding out, the other has jesus in control
a contradiction
:sorry1:

 

[waitasec]

Just because the answer I have given voids your false claims, doesn't mean I have "dodged anything".

then answer the question...
btw, a question isn't a claim.
:sorry1:

Only one of two swords was drawn/used and that by Peter.

interesting that you left out the part where the disciples asked if they should draw their swords...
actually, interesting is a wrong word, i expected you to..