i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

[sincerly]

circular logic goes nowhere.

As yours has proved.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Matt.26:38, "Then saith he unto them, My soul(Life/Being) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

which contradicts john 17...

John had spoken on the way to the garden the things of John16 which are the things that made HIM "sorrowful". No contradiction or inconsistency.

had they been asleep, they wouldn't have asked to draw their swords...

Neither would Peter have done so. Actions subjective to the disciples and their being tempted by their own preconceived ideas. Contrary to Jesus and HIS "hour has come" appointment with the prophesied Crucifixion.

 

[waitasec]

As yours has proved.

:biglaugh:
i'm not the one who's claiming the bible is the word of god becuase god says so in the bible :areyoucra

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Matt.26:38, "Then saith he unto them, My soul(Life/Being) is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."




John had spoken on the way to the garden the things of John16 which are the things that made HIM "sorrowful". No contradiction or inconsistency.

prove it...give me the passage.
nowhere in john 16 does jesus say he is sorrowful... nowhere.

Neither would Peter have done so. Actions subjective to the disciples and their being tempted by their own preconceived ideas. Contrary to Jesus and HIS "hour has come" appointment with the prophesied Crucifixion.

huh?
jesus asked them to keep watch...
and to pray to keep them from falling asleep.
and when they met judas they were so happy to see him, they asked if they should draw their swords....:areyoucra

 

[sincerly]

matthew 26:36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

notice not one word about praying....

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?”

notice he didn't say couldn't you pray for one hour

he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

the temptation of falling asleep
notice he didn't say 'pray so that you will not fall into temptation...'
watch for what?

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer and see wassup!”

Waitasec, Matthew was recording the events, he was with that group that was to "sit here"; but he wasn't one of the three who "went with Jesus" as HE Prayed. Matthew recorded that Peter had been told of his impending denials prior to the arrival at the Garden. Also, in vs.41, there is that admonition, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak." Falling asleep is a natural response---NOT a "temptation". To succumb to "Satan's sifting" is. And Peter should have been alert and praying concerning that which he had been warned would happen that night before the dawn. (Just as Jesus had expressed--on coming to them after that first prayer. )

Yes, That is what Jesus said. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation." (with anything about to happen---the use of the sword or denial of Jesus).

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, Matthew was recording the events, he was with that group that was to "sit here"; but he wasn't one of the three who "went with Jesus" as HE Prayed. Matthew recorded that Peter had been told of his impending denials prior to the arrival at the Garden. Also, in vs.41, there is that admonition, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak." Falling asleep is a natural response---NOT a "temptation". To succumb to "Satan's sifting" is. And Peter should have been alert and praying concerning that which he had been warned would happen that night before the dawn. (Just as Jesus had expressed--on coming to them after that first prayer. )

Yes, That is what Jesus said. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation." (with anything about to happen---the use of the sword or denial of Jesus).

did jesus ask them to keep watch? :yes:
did the disciples fall asleep? :yes:
did jesus ask them to pray to not fall asleep? :yes:
and why did jesus ask them to "Stay here and keep watch with me.”?

 

[sincerly]

prove it...give me the passage.
nowhere in john 16 does jesus say he is sorrowful... nowhere.

So you believe that Jesus was joyful at the Disciples soon to be persecuted, cast out of the synagogue, being hunted and killed, That HE couldn't take them to heaven at this time because of their mission to spread the truth of Salvation to the world, that there was still a lot of things which they still were not ready to comprehend as yet, that they were left in a hostile world????

Originally Posted by waitasec
had they been asleep, they wouldn't have asked to draw their swords...

Neither would Peter have done so. Actions subjective to the disciples and their being tempted by their own preconceived ideas. Contrary to Jesus and HIS "hour has come" appointment with the prophesied Crucifixion.[/quote.

huh?
jesus asked them to keep watch...
and to pray to keep them from falling asleep.
and when they met judas they were so happy to see him, they asked if they should draw their swords....:areyoucra

YOUR: """had they been asleep, they wouldn't have asked to draw their swords...""" and being "asleep" Peter couldn't have used the sword. NO "huh?"
The praying wasn't to keep them from 'falling asleep", but brom "falling into temptations" such as the drawing of the sword and denying Jesus.
It is your responses which are:areyoucra.

 

[waitasec]

So you believe that Jesus was joyful at the Disciples soon to be persecuted,

yup
mattew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

...cast out of the synagogue, being hunted and killed,

yup
luke 6:22 Blessed are you when people hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.

23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.

That HE couldn't take them to heaven at this time because of their mission to spread the truth of Salvation to the world, that there was still a lot of things which they still were not ready to comprehend as yet, that they were left in a hostile world????

so in other words you can't provide a passage in john to support you unsupportable claim that he was sorrowful in john...
john 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

he never implies he is feeling any 'sorrow' because in johns account jesus is confident of what is to happen...a very different account in the synoptic gospels. why do you think they are called synoptic gospels in the first place?

The praying wasn't to keep them from 'falling asleep", but brom "falling into temptations"

of sleep....remember jesus said 'sit here and keep watch', they then fell asleep...jesus came back and said pray so you don't fall asleep so they can do what he asked them to do in the first place...'sit here and keep watch.'

he didn't say sit here and pray and keep watch :no:

 

[connermt]

Hi Conner, Thanks for the information.
"I too am lucky enough to be a former believer" is your choice. I consider myself, lucky to have the Holy Spirit convict me to be one of God's Children.

Yes, there are narratives of peoples lives(and events) in the Bible which are examples of ways to please or displease the Creator GOD of all one sees.
The past civilizations which the Bible speaks of and archeologist have found attest to the "" flaws and illogical reasoning"" which you believe is in the Bible.
Just because a person writes a flawed self believed, but erroneous book or half-truth "book" doesn't make another one based upon Truth to be wrong. Those "books which were "cut" from the "Canon" were done so not at/during one year, but over the years.
You see, I believe that the Holy Spirit who Inspired the Writer's to write the "Books" also, was totally instrumental in preserving those books which were for the true edification of Mankind to be in harmony with the True Creator GOD.

You're free to believe anything you wish. As is anyone. But I'm speaking of facts. The fact is that the bible is a book, written by men, of stories. Are there historical truths to some of the stories? Most (including myself) would say yes. That doesn't mean, however, that the concept of a deity god/holy spirit/god-man-god-son is real and should be believed. Unless, that is, you wish to believe it real.
And when it comes to beliefs, facts are irrelevant.

 

[waitasec]

john 17:1 “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

mark 14:36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

matthew 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

luke 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

one of these things doesn't go with the others...

 

[sincerly]

did jesus ask them to keep watch? :yes:
did the disciples fall asleep? :yes:
did jesus ask them to pray to not fall asleep? :yes:
and why did jesus ask them to "Stay here and keep watch with me.”?

Yes, Yes, and NO! that isn't in the context. It is your supplying false ideas.
The Greek word for "watch" in these verses is "grēgoreō"; AND I do not find in any of ite useages the idea of "Fleeing". One is admonished to watch, be vigilent /alert . and Jesus was awaiting HIS betrayer so that the beginning of that "hour" that had been Prophesied from "before the foundation of the world" would commence---"The Lamb slain".
No amount of wrapping the truth of the scriptures with "false light"/your erroneous comments will make your claims of "confusion", "contradiction or inconsistency", "irreconcilable differences",etc make them truth.:sorry1:

 

[waitasec]

Yes, Yes, and NO! that isn't in the context. It is your supplying false ideas.

that he asked them to keep watch?

The Greek word for "watch" in these verses is "grēgoreō"; AND I do not find in any of ite useages the idea of "Fleeing".

what were they watching for?

 

[waitasec]

One is admonished to watch, be vigilent /alert .

for what? how did they know what to keep watch for?

and Jesus was awaiting HIS betrayer so that the beginning of that "hour" that had been Prophesied from "before the foundation of the world" would commence---"The Lamb slain".[/I]

and?

No amount of wrapping the truth of the scriptures with "false light"/your erroneous comments will make your claims of "confusion", "contradiction or inconsistency", "irreconcilable differences",etc make them truth.:sorry1:

what were the disciples keeping watch for...the betrayer? :yes:
did they know who was the betrayer
but they knew as soon as they say judas :yes:
so why then did they ask to draw their swords?

 

[sincerly]

You're free to believe anything you wish. As is anyone. But I'm speaking of facts. The fact is that the bible is a book, written by men, of stories. Are there historical truths to some of the stories? Most (including myself) would say yes. That doesn't mean, however, that the concept of a deity god/holy spirit/god-man-god-son is real and should be believed. Unless, that is, you wish to believe it real.
And when it comes to beliefs, facts are irrelevant.

Agreed, Conner, one was given that freedom to believe anything that one so desired. One can believe that the BIBLE is based upon myths wit some(a few) actual valid moral values, but totally without a true Creator GOD. That's a True FACT presented in the BIBLE, But the converse is, also, a FACT,, all that I see had a Creator GOD. It didn't come to exist spontaniously.
With True Facts, It is necessary for Beliefs to be an essential part of them.

 

[sincerly]

john 17:1 “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

mark 14:36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

matthew 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

luke 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

one of these things doesn't go with the others...

True, because they are two different prayers prayed at different locations and concerning different focuses.

 

[waitasec]

True, because they are two different prayers prayed at different locations and concerning different focuses.

then jesus suffered from a multiple personality disorder

 

[sincerly]

that he asked them to keep watch?

what were they watching for?

Not so they could flee from the betrayer. Or Avoid being arrested.

 

[waitasec]

Not so they could flee from the betrayer. Or Avoid being arrested.

answer the question...

 

[sincerly]

then jesus suffered from a multiple personality disorder

Is this a new claim??? All I see is another false insinuation.

 

[sincerly]

answer the question...

I did ! Those were your claims for the watching.