i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

[waitasec]

How can you expect to make sense(reconcile) when they ARE TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. Your problem is in claiming they are the SAME.

because there is only 1 jesus supposedly
as he was speaking to the disciples to stay awake judas appears
in the synoptic gospels

however, in john they walk into the garden and jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, approaches judas and co. ...
you cannot reconcile this

]Listen to and comprehend this next scripture which you posted and highlighted.(And I would hide my face/be ashamed, also.)



Where was HE and the disciples at the time of "finishing that prayer"?? Not in the Garden as you contend because they had to cross the "kidron valley" before they "went into it". That prayer was long "finished" before Jesus even started to "pray" in the garden.

your argument is invalid
why didn't you include vs 2-5?

They had been prior to judas and mob arrival; but Jesus had said to them "rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand". They were in the process of meeting that oncoming group.
(See above concerning the "walking"----they hadn't even entered the garden at that time. much less did any "sleeping".)

your version goes like this
1 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it as jesus hadn't finished praying. 2 jesus asked them to keep watch as he finishes the prayer he didn't finish.
3 the disciples fell asleep and jesus returns to them and asks them to pray to not be temptetd into doing what jesus had already foreseen them to do. 4 as he was talking to them judas arrives at the place with his posse. 5 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard.”
6 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Rabbi!” and kissed him. The men seized Jesus and arrested him.
7 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” 5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied.

“I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

your gospel is in need of some serious work...:yes:

John’s gospel contains no story of Jesus’ prayer. Judas simply arrives all of a sudden with soldiers and Temple police. In John, Judas does not kiss Jesus. Peter is identified as the disciple who cut off the ear of the high priest’s servant, now named Malchus. Nothing is said about the disciples running away, but certainly they are absent as Jesus is tied and bound (John 18:12).(The """Clearly both Luke and Matthew thought this detail anecdotal and irrelevant.""" is ok for the missing items in their accounts, but is a sinister mistake by John to not include items---or for others to misrepresent details which were shown. One can then claim the "didn't include" as proof for their false insinuations. John 16:32 tells of the running away.)
____________________________

There still are not any contradictions in the Four Gospels. Just one's false claims of such.

false?
i think not...

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
How can you expect to make sense(reconcile) when they ARE TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. Your problem is in claiming they are the SAME.

because there is only 1 jesus supposedly
as he was speaking to the disciples to stay awake judas appears
in the synoptic gospels

however, in john they walk into the garden and jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, approaches judas and co. ...
you cannot reconcile this

your argument is invalid
why didn't you include vs 2-5?

Waitasec, You admit that John isn't one of the synoptic gospels so there can be no agreement that the writings of Matthew, Mark and Luke concerning the scenes of Jesus praying in the garden with John's "finishing HIS Prayer" at the site of the Passover feast and then going from there and entering into that spot where the other writers had described a "Praying" session which wasn't discribed in John's account.
John's account of the garden scene begins with the "entering in"/with the "cometh thither of Judas and mob" The other writer's accounts had discribed Jesus praying in the garden and then being awakened to go(not flee) because the hour of Jesus's betral was present and HIS betrayer was now here to fulfill the prophecies.

As your article acknowledged, the "synoptics" didn't include all points/events/conditions which another writer had included or omitted and that was ok, But the same principle in John is described by you as "inconsistent/confusion/contradictory/etc." Reason being is that it shows your claims to be false. The one which is "invalid". And vss.2-5?? They were not concerning the two separate and distinct "finished praying" events.

your version goes like this.....

Only as concocted by you as you did this thread---according to your, "I think".

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by sincerly
How can you expect to make sense(reconcile) when they ARE TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. Your problem is in claiming they are the SAME.



Waitasec, You admit that John isn't one of the synoptic gospels so there can be no agreement that the writings of Matthew, Mark and Luke concerning the scenes of Jesus praying in the garden with John's "finishing HIS Prayer" at the site of the Passover feast and then going from there and entering into that spot where the other writers had described a "Praying" session which wasn't discribed in John's account.
John's account of the garden scene begins with the "entering in"/with the "cometh thither of Judas and mob" The other writer's accounts had discribed Jesus praying in the garden and then being awakened to go(not flee) because the hour of Jesus's betral was present and HIS betrayer was now here to fulfill the prophecies.

and what of the arrest? how can jesus walk up to judas at the same time he was asking his disciples to stay awake?
clearly you are ignoring the propaganda of each gospel...
john portrays jesus as confident while mark depicts a scared jesus...these are irreconcilable differences...unless you are willing to concede jesus was confused...or maybe john or the synoptic gospels were.

Only as concocted by you as you did this thread---according to your, "I think".

i get the feeling you believe thinking is a bad thing....and would rather be told what to believe.

 

[sincerly]

Waitasec, You admit that John isn't one of the synoptic gospels so there can be no agreement that the writings of Matthew, Mark and Luke concerning the scenes of Jesus praying in the garden with John's "finishing HIS Prayer" at the site of the Passover feast and then going from there and entering into that spot where the other writers had described a "Praying" session which wasn't discribed in John's account.
John's account of the garden scene begins with the "entering in"/with the "cometh thither of Judas and mob"
The other writer's accounts had discribed Jesus praying in the garden and then being awakened to go(not flee) because the hour of Jesus's betral was present and HIS betrayer was now here to fulfill the prophecies.

and what of the arrest? how can jesus walk up to judas at the same time he was asking his disciples to stay awake?
clearly you are ignoring the propaganda of each gospel...
john portrays jesus as confident while mark depicts a scared jesus...these are irreconcilable differences...unless you are willing to concede jesus was confused...or maybe john or the synoptic gospels were.

This should be answered first as it is your false claims which are being "propagated"---NOT the Scriptures. The four Gospels are in agreement with the exception of those things which one includes and another doesn't. There are no contradictions of the scriptures, any contradiction is the misunderstanding by you---(purposefully or from acceptance of another's misconceptions/interpretations.)

The Arrest took place in all the Gospel accounts as was prophesied. Even the betrayal kiss was patterned after Joab's in 2Sam.20:8. Also, The disciples did all "scatter". Peter acted on his own impulsive conclusions/thoughts/beliefs in the cutting off of the ear. NOT according to any command of resistance by Jesus. Jesus went with the arrestors as was prophesied "as a lamb led to slaughter".(Isa.53:7)

(#253)but you are assuming that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of god are one in the same. remember, there was a growing tension between the romans and the jews that led to the 4 yr jewish revolt that ultimately destroyed the temple. jesus in luke is saying that people have the kingdom of god is within their ability to over come the romans rule over them...remember the messiah was expected to be a warrior king as he was supposed to be from king davids lineage....who was a warrior king.

Waitasec, Yes, Peter drew the sword and used it to cut off the ear, But the action came from the very expectations you attest to above. Jesus had no intentions of "fleeing from the arrest". "For this hour came I into the world".

i get the feeling you believe thinking is a bad thing....and would rather be told what to believe.

Your feelings like your thinking is in need of serious repair---a clear acceptance of the Scriptures rather than the believing of articles written by Ehrman could be the answer.

 

[waitasec]

can you define what "a false claim" means to you?

 

[waitasec]

This should be answered first as it is your false claims which are being "propagated"---NOT the Scriptures. The four Gospels are in agreement with the exception of those things which one includes and another doesn't. There are no contradictions of the scriptures, any contradiction is the misunderstanding by you---(purposefully or from acceptance of another's misconceptions/interpretations.)

The Arrest took place in all the Gospel accounts as was prophesied. Even the betrayal kiss was patterned after Joab's in 2Sam.20:8. Also, The disciples did all "scatter". Peter acted on his own impulsive conclusions/thoughts/beliefs in the cutting off of the ear. NOT according to any command of resistance by Jesus. Jesus went with the arrestors as was prophesied "as a lamb led to slaughter".(Isa.53:7)

all this time you think my argument was that jesus wasn't arrested?
really?
my argument isn't about whether or not jesus was arrested my argument is to show that the discrepancy is found when jesus is asking his disciples to stay awake and then gets kissed and then is arrested as he walks up to judas and the mob and asks who they are looking for even though judas kisses him...this is irreconcilable.
:areyoucra

Waitasec, Yes, Peter drew the sword and used it to cut off the ear, But the action came from the very expectations you attest to above. Jesus had no intentions of "fleeing from the arrest". "For this hour came I into the world".

which was what? why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

Your feelings like your thinking is in need of serious repair---a clear acceptance of the Scriptures rather than the believing of articles written by Ehrman could be the answer.

acceptance based on what?

 

[sincerly]

can you define what "a false claim" means to you?

The universal meaning is:
Not according to fact,; Acts as truth/deceptive/appears as; untrue; mixed with error; etc.
Waitasec, it isn't the scriptural segments which are false, it is the suppositions, thinks, assumptions, ifs, whys, etc.,(comments) added by you which makes your "claims" false.

And that for the reason you admitted to somewhere in all the posts you and I have exchanged.(Similar to the reason which Ehrman says he writes and claims Biblical contradictions.)

I'll continue to refute erroneous claims against the truths of Scripture----but not just for your entertainment. There are others who just may decide to believe the truth of the scriptures rather than the deceptive posts which try to void their validity/truthfulness as "false, myths, etc".

 

[sincerly]

all this time you think my argument was that jesus wasn't arrested?
really?
my argument isn't about whether or not jesus was arrested my argument is to show that the discrepancy is found when jesus is asking his disciples to stay awake and then gets kissed and then is arrested as he walks up to judas and the mob and asks who they are looking for even though judas kisses him...this is irreconcilable.
:areyoucra

Nope! your supplying of an answer for me as you did here is the reason your claims are false. NO! I really do NOT believe your insinuation.
There was no discrepancy/irreconcilable differences in those acts nor in Jesus asking who they were looking for on the meeting of the two groups. The Context in John is the context for John's Gospel. The context for each of the other writers is the context found in their respective Gospels. One cannot amalgamate the four of them(contexts) as one. THAT "claim/presented idea" IS WHAT IS "Irreconcilable".

which was what? why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

Originally Posted by waitasec
(#253)but you are assuming that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of god are one in the same. remember, there was a growing tension between the romans and the jews that led to the 4 yr jewish revolt that ultimately destroyed the temple. jesus in luke is saying that people have the kingdom of god is within their ability to over come the romans rule over them...[colr=red]remember the messiah was expected to be a warrior king as he was supposed to be from king davids lineage....who was a warrior king.[/color]

acceptance based on what?

Your feelings like your thinking is in need of serious repair---a clear acceptance of the Scriptures rather than the believing of articles written by Ehrman could be the answer.

I underlined and made the answer bold for you. Are you having a problem with comprehension?

Your posts from the OP seems to attest to the fact.

 

[waitasec]

Nope! your supplying of an answer for me as you did here is the reason your claims are false. NO! I really do NOT believe your insinuation.
There was no discrepancy/irreconcilable differences in those acts nor in Jesus asking who they were looking for on the meeting of the two groups. The Context in John is the context for John's Gospel. The context for each of the other writers is the context found in their respective Gospels. One cannot amalgamate the four of them(contexts) as one. THAT "claim/presented idea" IS WHAT IS "Irreconcilable".



Originally Posted by waitasec
(#253)but you are assuming that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of god are one in the same. remember, there was a growing tension between the romans and the jews that led to the 4 yr jewish revolt that ultimately destroyed the temple. jesus in luke is saying that people have the kingdom of god is within their ability to over come the romans rule over them...[colr=red]remember the messiah was expected to be a warrior king as he was supposed to be from king davids lineage....who was a warrior king.[/color]

why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

I underlined and made the answer bold for you. Are you having a problem with comprehension?

Your posts from the OP seems to attest to the fact.

by what criteria i am going to accept scripture?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by waitasec
(#253)but you are assuming that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of god are one in the same. remember, there was a growing tension between the romans and the jews that led to the 4 yr jewish revolt that ultimately destroyed the temple. jesus in luke is saying that people have the kingdom of god is within their ability to over come the romans rule over them...remember the messiah was expected to be a warrior king as he was supposed to be from king davids lineage....who was a warrior king.

why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

Waitasec, another part of that "understanding" was that Jesus would be "Crucified" as a result of that arrest.
Therefore, as you posted above and I had already shown, A crucified Messiah could not free the nation of Israel from the rule of Rome. Their erroneous belief of the mission of Jesus at this time by the disciples.(Acts 1:6)

by what criteria i am going to accept scripture?

As long as your goal(admitted) is to prove the Bible as myths/contradictions/etc., you will not "accept scripture".

 

[waitasec]

answer the question
why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

 

[waitasec]

As long as your goal(admitted) is to prove the Bible as myths/contradictions/etc., you will not "accept scripture".

how about as long as i stay true to my skepticism and my integrity...

you assume way too much.
:tsk:

 

[sincerly]

how about as long as i stay true to my skepticism and my integrity...

you assume way too much.
:tsk:

I wasn't assumeing anything. You had admitted your goal. Your integrity baised upon skepticism is Your "criteria", but that doesn't make your "skepticism" correct---in your criticism of the Scriptures. And that I pointed out.

 

[sincerly]

answer the question
why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

I did, but it seems you cannot admit that you, also, acknowledged that those Jews at the time of Jesus(including the disciples) were looking for the Messiah to overthrow the Roman rule of the Nation of Israel.-----that "shall we draw the sword".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I did, but it seems you cannot admit that you, also, acknowledged that those Jews at the time of Jesus(including the disciples) were looking for the Messiah to overthrow the Roman rule of the Nation of Israel.-----that "shall we draw the sword".

Even close to the time of Jesus death there were disciples that thought Jesus was going to set up the kingdom of God at that time. [Daniel 2v44]

That was why Jesus gave them the illustration [Luke 19 vs11-15] that Messiah's reign would not be immediately or instantly appear at that time frame.

 

[waitasec]

I did...

no you didn't
you call my question an erroneous claim...
forget all that was said:
why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

 

[waitasec]

I wasn't assumeing anything. You had admitted your goal. Your integrity baised upon skepticism is Your "criteria", but that doesn't make your "skepticism" correct---in your criticism of the Scriptures. And that I pointed out.

so what...
thinking for one self is a good thing...

 

[sincerly]

no you didn't
you call my question an erroneous claim...
forget all that was said:
why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?

And they(questions) were as has been shown.

You mean because in answer to another poster you admitted:foot: that the disciples actually were expecting Jesus, their acknowledged Messiah, to overthrow the Roman Empire and free the nation of Israel from its rule that we should return to the OP!!!!???
It is obvious that the Disciples were thinking of those "Positions" they hoped to receive in a kingdom here on earth rather than in "My kingdom is NOT of this world".

Had Jesus made any remarks about the subject of freeing the Nation of Israel from the Roman Empire??:no:
Then like your presistence here, the disciples were holding a false idea even to forty days after the Crucifixion. And you refuse to allow that pointed out fact to over-ride your "think"/assumption that the asking "shall we draw the swords" was to help Jesus:run: as you claim. and to insist that Jesus actually had a "kingdom of this world". plus---. Those are the contrary to context falseness.

 

[sincerly]

so what...
thinking for one self is a good thing...

It depends------Gen.6:5, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." and you know the outcome of that people.

 

[waitasec]

And they(questions) were as has been shown.

huh?????

You mean because in answer to another poster you admitted:foot: that the disciples actually were expecting Jesus, their acknowledged Messiah, to overthrow the Roman Empire and free the nation of Israel from its rule that we should return to the OP!!!!???
It is obvious that the Disciples were thinking of those "Positions" they hoped to receive in a kingdom here on earth rather than in "My kingdom is NOT of this world".

wait, are you agreeing with me while cowering behind a discourse i had with someone else...? impressive
you not only inserted a foot in your mouth but almost an entire leg...

It is obvious that the Disciples were thinking of those "Positions" they hoped to receive in a kingdom here on earth...

it's obvious. yes it's obvious.

Had Jesus made any remarks about the subject of freeing the Nation of Israel from the Roman Empire??:no:

not just that...an act of comparing one self to caesar was considered an act of treason...which is why you see jesus pussyfooting around that little tid bit

who the hell knows if this is actually what jesus actually said, but it is clear that the gospels were used as propaganda as there were many many attempts at a revolt...lost sheep (Matthew 10:5-6, 15:24) were probably those that followed another messiah...there were many messiahs in this period of time that the synoptic gospels were written....read a history book for crying out loud

Then like your presistence here, the disciples were holding a false idea even to forty days after the Crucifixion. And you refuse to allow that pointed out fact to over-ride your "think"/assumption that the asking "shall we draw the swords" was to help Jesus:run: as you claim.

pay attention.
fact: jesus was caught
fact: jesus was killed
fact: the disciples were expecting a warrior king
fact: a warrior king would not turn himself in
fact: a dead warrior king cannot help them over come the romans ...but john figured out a way...(johns jesus never says what he says in matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 or luke 21:32...so in order to reconcile that fact that that generation did indeed certainly die and to reconcile the fact jesus was missing in action, john makes a case and edits the jewish theology by simply putting jesus as a mystical spiritual figure with a heavenly kingdom...in other words he was just moving goal posts...a common practice among christian apologists...shameless really.

even luke contradicts the heavenly kingdom of john...luke 17:21
jeeez read the hebrew bible...it's filled with wars to restore israel, why would this revolt be seen any different?

and to insist that Jesus actually had a "kingdom of this world". plus---. Those are the contrary to context falseness.

well here you inserted another foot...this where you cannot reconcile your silly argument...
john 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

in light of that they knew he was to be arrested, why ask to draw their swords? you are contradicting yourself...? :yes: :foot:
you claim they were waiting for the betrayer and they were not on a look out
yet they asked to draw their swords...:areyoucra
in light of john 15:15
yes jesus was confused.


what happened later has nothing to do with this particular contradiction in the gospel narrative....open another thread.