i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

[waitasec]

It depends------Gen.6:5, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." and you know the outcome of that people.

:biglaugh:
really...? let me guess, you were brought up in a christian home...
and one is not supposed to question these ideas of god because....you're not....why?...because you're not

that passage makes me wonder
why not impregnate a virgin instead...

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by waitasec
no you didn't
you call my question an erroneous claim...
forget all that was said:
why ask to draw their swords when it was understood that he was to be arrested?*****************

And they(questions) were as has been shown.

( in response to your: "forget all that was said:") You mean because in answer to another poster you admitted:foot: that the disciples actually were expecting Jesus, their acknowledged Messiah, to overthrow the Roman Empire and free the nation of Israel from its rule that we should return to the OP!!!!???

It is obvious that the Disciples were thinking of those "Positions" they hoped to receive in a kingdom here on earth rather than in "My kingdom is NOT of this world".

huh?????

wait, are you agreeing with me while cowering behind a discourse i had with someone else...? impressive
you not only inserted a foot in your mouth but almost an entire leg...

it's obvious. yes it's obvious.

No!! The agreement in your "discourse" was you with me as I had pointed out before your "discourse". And you ignored as being a factor.

not just that...an act of comparing one self to caesar was considered an act of treason...which is why you see jesus pussyfooting around that little tid bit

who the hell knows if this is actually what jesus actually said, but it is clear that the gospels were used as propaganda as there were many many attempts at a revolt...lost sheep (Matthew 10:5-6, 15:24) were probably those that followed another messiah...there were many messiahs in this period of time that the synoptic gospels were written....read a history book for crying out loud

That was a claim brought against Jesus at the trial before Pilate--BY THE JEWISH LEADERS. However, in none of the Scriptures has Jesus ever placed himself in opposition to Caesar.

In none of the four Gospels(or the epistles), is there any---even a hint--- of promoting a revolt of any kind by Jesus. This "thinking" is from you(and Ehrman??) NO propaganda by or intended in the N.T. of such---as that wasn't the mission Jesus came to fulfill.

Yes, the Jewish leaders and individuals( NOT the followers of Jesus) did revolt many times-----which lead to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D.70---as Jesus prophesied/warned would happen.

btw, "the lost sheep of Israel" were those who had turned their backs to obeying GOD---and were denying the Messiah they were actally looking for.

pay attention.
fact: jesus was caught

Wrong! Jesus voluntarily went to be crucified.

fact: jesus was killed

Yes, as had been prophesied from "before the foundation of the world".

fact: the disciples were expecting a warrior king

True! As I had shown you from the scriptures and you acknowledged in a post.

fact: a warrior king would not turn himself in

Wrong. In the scriptures, many "warrior kings" did surrender. Also, in secular history.

fact: a dead warrior king cannot help them over come the romans ...but john figured out a way...(johns jesus never says what he says in matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 or luke 21:32...so in order to reconcile that fact that that generation did indeed certainly die and to reconcile the fact jesus was missing in action, john makes a case and edits the jewish theology by simply putting jesus as a mystical spiritual figure with a heavenly kingdom...in other words he was just moving goal posts...a common practice among christian apologists...shameless really.

You finally see the answer to why they asked and why Peter drew the sword. Their own preconceived ideas(free the Nation of Israel from the Roman Empire and give then positions in a earthly kingdom) as to the mission of Jesus rather than the prophesied one Jesus came to fulfill----To be the Atoneing sacrifice for the sins of mankind---this mission being the reason for which they were writing about the life and mission of Jesus.

Has the end come??? No! It is the generation that "sees" the prophesied signs which will not pass. Btw, are you moving the "goal posts" from the scene of Jesus's last hours before the crucifixion to HIS Second coming???

even luke contradicts the heavenly kingdom of john...luke 17:21
jeeez read the hebrew bible...it's filled with wars to restore israel, why would this revolt be seen any different?

waitasec, had you read Luke17:20-25 the context would have shown there is no contradiction.

Yes, the Bible does list those "wars" which the Israelites had brought upon themselves by disobedience. It was only with repentance and returning to God that HE restored security to Israel.

"This revolt" had nothing to do with the Mission Jesus was to accomplish---The prophesied "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world". HE came and "Finished" HIS assisnment.

well here you inserted another foot...this where you cannot reconcile your silly argument...
john 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

in light of that they knew he was to be arrested, why ask to draw their swords? you are contradicting yourself...? :yes: :foot:
you claim they were waiting for the betrayer and they were not on a look out
yet they asked to draw their swords...:areyoucra
in light of john 15:15
yes jesus was confused.

See above concerning their ingrained opinion of Jesus "restoreing the Nation of Israel" which you acknowledge.

Jesus was NOT confused---but as you have admitted, you have a goal, mission, agenda, etc. to claim the Bible false by your false/misapplied interpretations/opinions, insinuations.

what happened later has nothing to do with this particular contradiction in the gospel narrative....open another thread.

But, contrary to your assumption, later acknowledged facts does have something to do with the action at the time of the narrative.(40 days previous.)

 

[sincerly]

:biglaugh:
really...? let me guess, you were brought up in a christian home...
and one is not supposed to question these ideas of god because....you're not....why?...because you're not

As Paul acknowledged, "I'm not ashamed" of the Everlasting Gospel.
However, I have lived long enough to have seen the veracity of the Scriptures. There is no reason for . Instead:clap , Thank you Father for Loving me(ALL) enough to send Your Son to be the propitiation for me.

that passage makes me wonder
why not impregnate a virgin instead...

Since I have no idea as to your intended meaning,----????.

 

[waitasec]

No!! The agreement in your "discourse" was you with me as I had pointed out before your "discourse". And you ignored as being a factor.

you said "poster"

You mean because in answer to another poster you admitted

oops.

That was a claim brought against Jesus at the trial before Pilate--BY THE JEWISH LEADERS. However, in none of the Scriptures has Jesus ever placed himself in opposition to Caesar.

matthew 14:33, 28:9...notice the word "worship"
john 10:20-33

it's a disclaimer...a way to separate the jesus movement from the jews... do you know what propaganda means?
a law that was changed, circumcision, was because grown men didn't want a part of their pee pee snipped off...so let the editing of a new theology begin

In none of the four Gospels(or the epistles), is there any---even a hint--- of promoting a revolt of any kind by Jesus. This "thinking" is from you(and Ehrman??) NO propaganda by or intended in the N.T. of such---as that wasn't the mission Jesus came to fulfill.

paul was quite fond of the romans....
romans 13:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

nero was caesar when paul penned this letter...ooops

Yes, the Jewish leaders and individuals( NOT the followers of Jesus) did revolt many times-----which lead to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D.70---as Jesus prophesied/warned would happen.

duh...

btw, "the lost sheep of Israel" were those who had turned their backs to obeying GOD---and were denying the Messiah they were actally looking for.

those who would not/or did not follow the jesus movement...
30-70 yrs later duh

Wrong! Jesus voluntarily went to be crucified.

yes, as god himself said that he detested human sacrifice
another edit for the purpose of a new theology
he died, he became a maryter...
of course he didn't go willingly...why not just turn himself in?

but this is where i think the christian theology falls apart...
did he think he would die an old man, or did he know he was to be crucified...then why call judas the betrayer, all we know according to the gospel of judas jesus told him to point him out to the authorities... either way, his death would have meant the same in the end
so really jesus the god man was subjected to man... what a ridiculous notion.

Yes, as had been prophesied from "before the foundation of the world".

the reason all this happened was because adam became like god, knowing good from evil and thusly was kicked out of the garden..had god created man without the ability to understand good from evil then their wouldn't have been a reason to sacrifice himself to himself...silly theology. since we still die after jesus' supposed "sacrifice"

besides that isn't a prophesy..it's in the book of revelation, written around 95 CE
circular logic gets you nowhere.

True! As I had shown you from the scriptures and you acknowledged in a post.

you think i didn't already know that?

Wrong. In the scriptures, many "warrior kings" did surrender. Also, in secular history.

:biglaugh:
was jesus a warrior?

You finally see the answer to why they asked and why Peter drew the sword. Their own preconceived ideas(free the Nation of Israel from the Roman Empire and give then positions in a earthly kingdom) as to the mission of Jesus rather than the prophesied one Jesus came to fulfill----To be the Atoneing sacrifice for the sins of mankind---this mission being the reason for which they were writing about the life and mission of Jesus.

you seem to be approaching these gospels as if these things were happening in real time...
they were not.
these gospels were written at a time when the relations between the romans and the jews were tense. these gospels were written after the fact. pauls letters predate the gospels...and it's interesting to mention, paul never gets specific about jesus' ministry only his death his resurrection the 2nd coming and judgment day. why? because there were no gospels written.

Has the end come??? No! It is the generation that "sees" the prophesied signs which will not pass. Btw, are you moving the "goal posts" from the scene of Jesus's last hours before the crucifixion to HIS Second coming???

no not really because it puts john gospel into perspective as it was written 60 ys plus after the death of christ...and that generation died, the temple was destroyed wasn't it...yet no return :sorry1:

waitasec, had you read Luke17:20-25 the context would have shown there is no contradiction.

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]
22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

and? luke was written around 40 yrs AFTER these events supposedly occurred. of course there were other messiahs running around...the gospel of luke was just making a case for jesus... simple, when you read it as an account...not as something that was written as it was happening...

Yes, the Bible does list those "wars" which the Israelites had brought upon themselves by disobedience. It was only with repentance and returning to God that HE restored security to Israel.

and this jesus movement was the answer as to why god allowed for the destruction of the temple...all happening when these gospel accounts were being written.

"This revolt" had nothing to do with the Mission Jesus was to accomplish---The prophesied "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world". HE came and "Finished" HIS assisnment.

where in the hebrew bible does it say this...
this is found in the book of revelations...this is what happens after one smokes hasheesh with a hookah

Jesus was NOT confused---but as you have admitted, you have a goal, mission, agenda, etc. to claim the Bible false by your false/misapplied interpretations/opinions, insinuations.

my goal is to defend the argument i presented....

But, contrary to your assumption, later acknowledged facts does have something to do with the action at the time of the narrative.(40 days previous.)

the gospels were not written in real time...as the events occurred
they were written way after the fact....during a time of political strife between the jews and the romans.

 

[waitasec]

As Paul acknowledged, "I'm not ashamed" of the Everlasting Gospel.
However, I have lived long enough to have seen the veracity of the Scriptures. There is no reason for . Instead:clap , Thank you Father for Loving me(ALL) enough to send Your Son to be the propitiation for me.

so i'm right. you were brought up in a christian home...
it takes one to know one...

Since I have no idea as to your intended meaning,----????.

that passage was right before the flood...so why not impregnate a virgin then, instead of killing all but a handful of people....?
didn't god know that was going to happen when he set adam up to fail...by creating him with the ability to understand the difference between good and evil? seems to me that god would rather have trained animals walking around...maybe that is what you have to look forward too...a lobotomy in your new resurrected body...otherwise how can one unlearn what they've learned?

 

[Renji]

i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

Or maybe it was you.

 

[waitasec]

Or maybe it was you.

can you blame me?

 

[sincerly]

you said "poster"

oops.

No "oops" on my part! That "poster' was "Super Universe"#243 and your answer was #253 with a "remember" expecting the "warrior king"(massiah) to overthrow the Romans.

besides that isn't a prophesy..it's in the book of revelation, written around 95 CE
circular logic gets you nowhere.

Yes, Rev.13:8, "...the Lamb alain from before the foundation of the world"...isn't the only place that wording is used. 1Peter 1:19-20 says, "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," And that prophecy was promised to Adam and Eve after they had disobeyed (in Gen.3:15),"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." That was the mission came to fulfill and did so.

Now is the(continuing) gathering of HIS JEWELS... those who "Think" enough of GOD and neighbor to be Obedient and repentant in LOVE.

True! As I had shown you from the scriptures and you acknowledged in a post.

you think i didn't already know that?

Then there is no reason for questioning Peter's use of the sword. Thanks for acknowledging the fact.

you seem to be approaching these gospels as if these things were happening in real time...
they were not.
these gospels were written at a time when the relations between the romans and the jews were tense. these gospels were written after the fact. pauls letters predate the gospels...and it's interesting to mention, paul never gets specific about jesus' ministry only his death his resurrection the 2nd coming and judgment day. why? because there were no gospels written.

Waitasec, Your "seems" is because of your own refusal to acknowledge the truthfulness of the Scriptures which I have posted. I have reminded you numerous times that Luke 1:1-3acknowledges the fact that He and others "had taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us".
You have tried to cause conflicts/contradictions among the different Gospel writers in an attempt to discredit their truthfulness and validity. (and you have failed).

Paul wasn't a disciple of Jesus prior to HIS(Jesus) death. However, in Gal.1:11-12, we find Paul gets very specific about his ministry and the teachings of Jesus. "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

no not really because it puts john gospel into perspective as it was written 60 ys plus after the death of christ...and that generation died, the temple was destroyed wasn't it...yet no return :sorry1:

Waitasec, you and your site from where you are obtaining some or all of your answers have concluded that John waited until almost his death to compose The "Gospel" and the four epistles. The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 stands as testimony that all were written prior to that date.---other than Revelation.

"This revolt" had nothing to do with the Mission Jesus was to accomplish---The prophesied "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world". HE came and "Finished" HIS assisnment.

where in the hebrew bible does it say this...
this is found in the book of revelations...this is what happens after one smokes hasheesh with a hookah

are you saying that is why you have made those "confusing claims"???

my goal is to defend the argument i presented....

And now that "argument" is an to acknowledge as you previously did.

 

[waitasec]

No

**yawn**
:beach:

jesus told the disciples in john 15:15 that everything he knew they knew...yes? :yes:

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

which says they knew the importance of jesus' crucifixion yes? :yes:
everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

do you have a problem with the word everything...:yes:
too bad for you :sorry1:

in light of that knowledge of jesus' crucifixion, why would they ask to draw their swords when the opportunity came to hand jesus over to the temple authorities?

 

[sincerly]

No "oops" on my part! That "poster' was "Super Universe"#243 and your answer was #253 with a "remember" expecting the "warrior king"(messiah) to overthrow the Romans.

Originally Posted by sincerly
No (complete post answer above----with your admittance that the disciples were expecting the overthrow by Jesus.)

**yawn**
:beach:

A **yawn** refutes nothing.(IT does show your:run: from that which you ackknowledge.) It, also, does show that your posts aren't seeking truth, but are meant to distort Truth.(of/in the Bible)

...in light of that knowledge of jesus' crucifixion, why would they ask to draw their swords when the opportunity came to hand jesus over to the temple authorities?

You are the one confused because you fail to see that the disciples not only acknowledged that Jesus is the Messiah expected, but the Son of the Creator GOD. Also, they were still expecting Jesus to free the nation of Israel from Roman rule as the Jewish leaders had falsely taught.---and as the scriptures acknowledge and you concurred in that post.:foot:

The disciples had no authority, as Jesus indicated, to "hand Jesus over to the authorities". HE came to earth for the reason to be crucified for the Sins of mankind and HE fulfilled that mission.

btw, isn't one to give the source when excerpts are posted from them??

 

[waitasec]

You are the one confused because you fail to see that the disciples not only acknowledged that Jesus is the Messiah expected, but the Son of the Creator GOD. Also, they were still expecting Jesus to free the nation of Israel from Roman rule as the Jewish leaders had falsely taught.---and as the scriptures acknowledge and you concurred in that post.:foot:

then jesus was only joking in john 15:15

**yawn**
:beach:

 

[sincerly]

then jesus was only joking in john 15:15

**yawn**
:beach:

Not at all! The same principle holds in John 15:15 Just as Jesus had told the disciples in Acts 1:6-7 concerning the freeing of Israel from the Roman Empire. "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

John15:15-27, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." The context of those next 12 verses gives some of that everything the Father said and Luke 24:27, 44-48 gives more understanding---of that everything. And minute details are not given for many subjects seen in the BIBLE.

Because those minute details are NOT given, doesn't mean that one's wild speculations are true----The scriptures give enough of the Messages from GOD for one to have an adequate understanding of the true message being given.

 

[waitasec]

Not at all! The same principle holds in John 15:15 Just as Jesus had told the disciples in Acts 1:6-7 concerning the freeing of Israel from the Roman Empire. "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

John15:15-27, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." The context of those next 12 verses gives some of that everything the Father said and Luke 24:27, 44-48 gives more understanding---of that everything. And minute details are not given for many subjects seen in the BIBLE.

Because those minute details are NOT given, doesn't mean that one's wild speculations are true----The scriptures give enough of the Messages from GOD for one to have an adequate understanding of the true message being given.

acts 1:7
It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

:spit:
convenient answer....

in light of john 15:15
jesus lied to his friends about this one small detail

but i thought jesus and god were one?
john 17...that they may be one as we are one
did jesus suffer from schizophrenia? did he not already tell himself what the plan was?


schizophrenia
It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood, with a global lifetime prevalence of about 0.3–0.7%.[2] Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the patient's reported experiences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

yea, jesus was confused or may be john and luke were
:biglaugh:


this is hysterical...

 

[sincerly]

acts 1:7
It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

:spit:
convenient answer....

And the Scriptural truth---which shows the erroneous claims of yours to be false.

in light of john 15:15
jesus lied to his friends about this one small detail

No Lie on the part of Jesus---but in the context of your "claim", it proved your post to be of that category.

but i thought jesus and god were one?
john 17...that they may be one as we are one
did jesus suffer from schizophrenia? did he not already tell himself what the plan was?

No, Jesus didn't suffer from schizophrenia, but it is delusional thinking for one to believe one's own false assumptions as truth.

yea, jesus was confused or may be john and luke were
:biglaugh:

this is hysterical...

No, Jesus et al. aren't the confused ones---and it is your posts which would be hysterical, if the subject were just comical.

 

[waitasec]

And the Scriptural truth---which shows the erroneous claims of yours to be false.

scriptural truth =/= empirical truth
it's absolutely subjective.

No Lie on the part of Jesus---but in the context of your "claim", it proved your post to be of that category.

did jesus tell them everything as he said he did in john 15:15:no:

No, Jesus didn't suffer from schizophrenia, but it is delusional thinking for one to believe one's own false assumptions as truth.

:sorry1: about your condition

No, Jesus et al. aren't the confused ones---and it is your posts which would be hysterical, if the subject were just comical.

a god who sacrifices himself to himself is confusing nonetheless

 

[sincerly]

a god who sacrifices himself to himself is confusing nonetheless

And that belief by you is why you are confused---Not Jesus et al.
Jesus took your and my place upon the Cross in order to pay our penalty for disobedience. ALL will Bow the knee "today" or on that judgment day.

 

[waitasec]

And that belief by you is why you are confused---Not Jesus et al.
Jesus took your and my place upon the Cross in order to pay our penalty for disobedience. ALL will Bow the knee "today" or on that judgment day.

selling my culpability is an act i consider to be immoral. ...

 

[sincerly]

selling my culpability is an act i consider to be immoral. ...

Impossible!---No human being is able to buy it.
That's the reason for the arrest and crucifixion.

 

[waitasec]

Impossible!---No human being is able to buy it.

no sell it.

don't worry i didn't expect you to understand...

 

[sincerly]

no sell it.

don't worry i didn't expect you to understand...

Even if you wanted to "sell", there is no human being that could buy it. The reason for the "culpability" is what is "immoral".