I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

[Greatest I am]

I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

I always thought Islam a smart religion and I see I was wrong in this once instance. Please do not view this as a critique of any other of your views, I do not know them well enough. I did follow one of your leaders through this medium at one time and respect Islam as a religion. Allah as represented is to be respected.


The issue in question is that of the death of Theo van Gogh.
I cannot view his film Submission with your eyes and mindset and will offer mine from my side.
My overall impression of the message of this film, from a religious point of view, was that if all males, of any religion, that were of spiritual heart, would learn wrong conduct and would gain a further respect for their women.
To me this is a positive for any religion.
The only shame I see is that Islam, a progressive religion, did not come up with it yourselves.
To your fundamentals I ask, what were you thinking? To much of the old pipe perhaps? Please note that I say this as a joke. No Holy anything please.
I hope you will forgive my bluntness in speech. In other places where I discuss religion it is often insinuated that I and Satan are close and so my intrusion on your thoughts may be an insult. I hope you do not take it as such.
In my definition of debate I love all I speak to but, respect they have to earn.
When I first learned of your God, He began without blemish. That of course is only in my eyes for I speak only for one. He now has a small one. Please help me regain that small part of the respect I lost to add to that which I still hold for your God.
I do recognize that the presentation of the young lady in what Islam would view as risqué but would have thought that the benefits of the universal message of right action, would
have cause the leadership to not honor Van Gogh with martyrdom and therefore putting a thorn in Islam’s rump forever.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

From the way you speak about Islam, i get the feelings that you know only little about Islam and Muslims in general. There are more than 1.5 billion in the world today and if you gave it another thought, you will realize that what happened have nothing to do with Islam and Muslims in general, but with some minority acting in the name of it just like the other extreme groups in any other religion.

Just a quick question for you. Why to blame Islam as a whole by the media when few Muslims do something, and not treat other religions followers in the same manner?

Does it have to do with bias or ignorance?

 

[Greatest I am]

From the way you speak about Islam, i get the feelings that you know only little about Islam and Muslims in general.

Correct. I have tried to learn more but dialog through forums is difficult. They are very Fundamental and do not seem interested in dialog. Even the comparative religion sections seem not to want to compare religions.

None have looked at the film, let alone comment on the moral lesson that I think is good for all religions.

There are more than 1.5 billion in the world today and if you gave it another thought, you will realize that what happened have nothing to do with Islam and Muslims in general, but with some minority acting in the name of it just like the other extreme groups in any other religion.

You may have noticed that I did single out the Fundamentals and indicated that all Fundamentals of any religion hurt their parent religions. All Religionists suffer for the acts of a few. unfortunately the leadership did not denounce their Fundamentals. I even noted that it could have been any other group doing a black flag operation. Could have been Christians footing the bill for all we can know.

Just a quick question for you. Why to blame Islam as a whole by the media when few Muslims do something, and not treat other religions followers in the same manner?

Does it have to do with bias or ignorance?

I try to treat all Fundamentals of all religions with the same contempt because it is impossible to know thanks to black flag operations just who is doing what.

I note that you did not speak to the good morals of the film. Is that because of your bias?

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

I try to treat all Fundamentals of all religions with the same contempt because it is impossible to know thanks to black flag operations just who is doing what.

I note that you did not speak to the good morals of the film. Is that because of your bias?

Regards
DL

First of all, how do you know that Muslim leaders didn't denounce these kinds of acts?


Secondly, do Muslim leaders have to apologize for every single crime some Muslims do?

Do we have to make the Pope apologize for every single crime is being done by a Christian or let's say, a Catholic?

Regarding the good morals you speak of in the movie, i didn't see any because i didn't watch the movie.

 

[Greatest I am]

First of all, how do you know that Muslim leaders didn't denounce these kinds of acts?


Secondly, do Muslim leaders have to apologize for every single crime some Muslims do?

Do we have to make the Pope apologize for every single crime is being done by a Christian or let's say, a Catholic?

Regarding the good morals you speak of in the movie, i didn't see any because i didn't watch the movie.

Now why does that not surprise me.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

Meaning?

 

[Greatest I am]

Meaning?

Meaning that you were quick to criticize without even checking the content of the message.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

I didn't even mention the message. I guess you are not following me here sir. I was talking about the Van Gogh incident.

 

[Greatest I am]

I didn't even mention the message. I guess you are not following me here sir. I was talking about the Van Gogh incident.

Try reading the OP again then you might know what we are supposed to talk about.

Try looking at the evidence before judging.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

Try reading the OP again then you might know what we are supposed to talk about.

Try looking at the evidence before judging.

Regards
DL

From your OP ..

The issue in question is that of the death of Theo van Gogh.

 

[Greatest I am]

From your OP ..

YouTube - Submission Part 1- What Theo van Gogh was murdered for

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

Sorry for being late. I have been busy lately.

YouTube - Submission Part 1- What Theo van Gogh was murdered for

Regards
DL

What do you think of the message of this clip, and what is the impression you get when you watch it in relation with Islam?

I first want to know what do you see in it, as a non-muslim, then i'll give you my answer.

 

[Greatest I am]

Sorry for being late. I have been busy lately.



What do you think of the message of this clip, and what is the impression you get when you watch it in relation with Islam?

I first want to know what do you see in it, as a non-muslim, then i'll give you my answer.

I do have a statement written and promise to relay it but I want your view unclouded by mine first if you please.

I did ask first and believe in reciprocity.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

I do have a statement written and promise to relay it but I want your view unclouded by mine first if you please.

I did ask first and believe in reciprocity.

Regards
DL

For me, i just saw a naked woman praying and talking about her family problems and some types of harasments trying to imply it's God's fault. And i also noticed that they wrote some verses of the Quran in her body. It's so lame to me and silly but might be provocative for some.

 

[Greatest I am]

For me, i just saw a naked woman praying and talking about her family problems and some types of harasments trying to imply it's God's fault. And i also noticed that they wrote some verses of the Quran in her body. It's so lame to me and silly but might be provocative for some.

Thanks for this.-now as promised.

To me this film is a classic example of the male world subjugating women.
It portrays a case of sexual and physical abuse for a woman that allows her no way out of her situation. A complaint to parents not only fails to ease her burden but brings further scorn and mental abuse from those who are there to guide her and protect her.

I recognize that Islam was perhaps the main target for Van Gogh but that, because this type of situation transcends all religious and secular lines, become a good universal message for all of us.

The message is clear for all peoples where the males can institutionally subjugate their women as well as all others in secular societies where people, both men and women, tolerate or turn a blind eye to the suffering and abuse of women in order to save face. Van Gogh does not stoop to only chastising men but also shows the actress as perhaps deserving some scorn for following her heart but focuses as he should on the male inappropriate conduct as well as inappropriate action from parents.

In short the moral messages are clear.

For women.
Do not follow your heart to inappropriate sexual conduct with anyone other than your husband.
Do not allow yourself to be abused in any mental, physical or sexual by anyone, be they husbands, relatives or outsiders.

For mothers and fathers.
Do not tolerate the abuse of your children by anyone regardless of your religious or social circumstances.
By tolerating such action, you become as evil as the perpetrator of the action.

For men.
Do not abuse your wife or any female physically, mentally or sexually. Do not use even a willing party in a sexual liaison even in a loving way if her social position is such that it can bring abuse by her peers.

If one would forget that Islam were Van Gogh’s target and dress the production in secular colors then all would focus better on the universal moral message and not let religious thoughts cloud the ideas that he tries to express. The fact that most here could not set religion aside says much about us. Lets all try to do better.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

If one would forget that Islam were Van Gogh’s target and dress the production in secular colors then all would focus better on the universal moral message and not let religious thoughts cloud the ideas that he tries to express. The fact that most here could not set religion aside says much about us. Lets all try to do better.

Regards
DL

Welcome. I think you have a point, but do you think imposing the secular point of view of the film is a fair solution to everybody?

Not eveyone believe as you do you know? that's if you believe in freedom of belief and choice, which i think you do.

 

[Greatest I am]

Welcome. I think you have a point, but do you think imposing the secular point of view of the film is a fair solution to everybody?

Not eveyone believe as you do you know? that's if you believe in freedom of belief and choice, which i think you do.

My view is not that of a Secularist. I am a Religionist like yourself.

This message of van Gogh's would apply to Secular law as well and in many cases has better laws than some religions.

Who would not agree with the morals I spoke to. Which issue?

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

My view is not that of a Secularist. I am a Religionist like yourself.

This message of van Gogh's would apply to Secular law as well and in many cases has better laws than some religions.

Who would not agree with the morals I spoke to. Which issue?

Regards
DL

Then why linking the issue to Islam? to get famous?

 

[Greatest I am]

Then why linking the issue to Islam? to get famous?

Perhaps.

If the message is good and true and universal, does it matter?

As stated in the OP. Islam would have been smart to do such a production themselves.

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

Perhaps.

If the message is good and true and universal, does it matter?

As stated in the OP. Islam would have been smart to do such a production themselves.

Regards
DL

The message is not true but evil, single minded, and deceitful. And for the record, Islam is the religion, Muslims are those who adhere to this religion.

If it was about family problems and personal issues, why link it to Islam?

Would you tolerate mocking those who either died or survived the holocaust?

Have you seen any in the Western media?

I'm not being apologist here but i'm just showing you the double standard in dealing with various issues.