muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I agree with you that Republicans care less about the views of Muslims.
However, what happens in future, is not the responsibility of those who abstain from voting,
in my view.
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I was wrong - and that makes me angry.
- Thread starter Heyo
- Start date
However, what happens in future, is not the responsibility of those who abstain from voting,
in my view.
Those who abstain make a choice to letI agree with you that Republicans care less about the views of Muslims.
However, what happens in future, is not the responsibility of those who abstain from voting,
in my view.
the party with the most votes make policy.
So they bear some responsibility.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No .. the ones that vote bear the responsibility .. the policies of the candidates/parties
bear the responsibility.
When a voter has the ability to cast a vote
against a malefactor, but doesn't, then
that voter bears responsibility for that
choice to abstain, putting the malefactor
in power.
I would say that's partially correct, as the voters tend to vote based on what they believe about a given candidate. Whether or not those beliefs are accurate or well-informed seems to be the major point of contention.
an anarchist
Your local loco.
Those who do not perpetuate the system are still somehow blamed for the results… shame shame
Heyo
Veteran Member
The news, analysts commentary and the discussion here have brought me to the conclusion that at least Trump's voters were not malicious, just delusional.
I'm not so sure about the non-voters, yet. There is no data available, and the speculations run wild. Kamala was too hard core - or too soft, she was too much pro Israel - or too little, she's black - she's not black enough. Maybe she was just too balanced?
I'm not so sure about the non-voters, yet. There is no data available, and the speculations run wild. Kamala was too hard core - or too soft, she was too much pro Israel - or too little, she's black - she's not black enough. Maybe she was just too balanced?
...too Soros.
Definitely too Soros.
When they stand aside, & take not even the smallest
effort to fight corruption, they're enablers. I don't
"blame" them. But I give them some culpability.
Yes, but not the root problem.
In my opinion, it's conservative indoctrination media, which has created such people by the tens of millions from the pool of susceptible minds. Those people are presently unfit to live among. They will have taken their smarter neighbors who can't get out of Trump's way down with them. It's just too soon for them to see that.
They can't anticipate what likely follows from their choice like their smarter neighbors can, who are now nervously sheltering in place during the calm before the coming storm, or else making plans to relocate. These unseeing people will have to be hit to know that anything is wrong, and even then, they'll likely misunderstand what is happening to them and why. They'll be less happy but won't see themselves or their choices as the problem.
Millions of the Americans who knew better are looking to separate themselves from these people and the effects of their choices. This describes how I felt and feel about MAGA America:
As I said, in my opinion, the process that generated those people is the root problem, and it began with the repealing of the Fairness Doctrine which could be called the root problem leading to the successful propagandizing of America, at which time America was mortally wounded and is only now dying from the consequences. The indoctrination won't stop, the susceptible won't heal, and if the House goes Republican, fascistic America has already intrenched itself in America for generations to come.
One could even identify a prior problem to the repeal and call IT the root problem: the failure of liberal America to successfully resist the repealing of that law.
And if the Dems hold the House this time? It's just a matter of time before the indoctrinated give fascistic Republicans the whole government.
And they shall get something very different.
Generally, when one is dissatisfied with the status quo, one makes a change that he considers will be for the better. Some changes are for the worse. One has to accumulate evidence and analyze it properly to have reasonable chance of deciding in advance what the results of the change he makes will be.
Those that have chosen Trump in the hope that he will improve their lives don't know how to do that. Those that are able to process evidence and better able to anticipate outcomes are aware of what these people have unleashed.
It will be different, just like the MAGA voters hoped, but not for the better as they had hoped. Virtually every American that doesn't benefit from the looting of Americans about to come will suffer for it. The tax breaks given billionaires will come out of their pockets. The surcharges due to tariffs will come out of their pockets, and the cost won't be limited to imported products. When Toyota dealers, who have been competing with similarly priced domestic models, have to raise their price $20,000 on its imported cars, the prices will rise on those competing domestic cars.
One place people will really feel the difference is in missing disaster relief and legitimate insurance claims on real estate (and everything else) being rejected. What the American people need to understand is that their government won't be representing their interests under Trump. FEMA relief means nothing to the wealthy, and they sure don't want the riff-raff getting any of that money. That money is theirs as they see it. Insurers are nly there to collect premiums, not pay out benefits. They have to be forced by government to do that, or they won't, and this government is on their side, not that of the average American.
Obamacare seems doomed, so if you've been benefitting by affordable insurance without preexisting condition exclusions, well, adios to that.
So, yeah, look for something different. The frying pan was uncomfortable. Let's see where you jumped to. I'm pretty sure that I can tell you because I understand what Trump and MAGA are. I know their values, their methods, and their agenda as do millions of other people - billions globally. That's why they're so nervous and concerned about that future that MAGA voters have unleashed on them and the rest of America.
And the inability to do that - to recognize what a lying, thieving, narcissistic, antisocial, angry, vengeful, recently humiliated person will do to them once given essentially unchecked power - is why people turned to that in the hope that he would care about them and be kind to them.
PureX
Veteran Member
I wonder how many among the German population were still supporting the nazis in their hearts and minds even after the war was lost and all their heinous crimes were finally exposed for all the world to see.
My guess is that a LOT of them did. Because human ego doesn't give a rat's butt about the truth of things. The ego is all and only about being right. Not being true. Even photos of the millions of innocent dead and starving humans will have no effect on the human ego unless they are serving it's perpetual delusions of self-righteousness.
I don't think it's a question of good people or bad people. I think it's a question of whether a person has learned to keep their ego in check, or whether they are enslaved by it. Once enslaved by it, usually no amount of 'reality check' will dissuade us from the delusion that we are right.
My guess is that a LOT of them did. Because human ego doesn't give a rat's butt about the truth of things. The ego is all and only about being right. Not being true. Even photos of the millions of innocent dead and starving humans will have no effect on the human ego unless they are serving it's perpetual delusions of self-righteousness.
I don't think it's a question of good people or bad people. I think it's a question of whether a person has learned to keep their ego in check, or whether they are enslaved by it. Once enslaved by it, usually no amount of 'reality check' will dissuade us from the delusion that we are right.
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stvdv
Veteran Member
Thank you for sharing your detailed view on this issue.Yes, but not the root problem.
In my opinion, it's conservative indoctrination media, which has created such people by the tens of millions from the pool of susceptible minds. Those people are presently unfit to live among. They will have taken their smarter neighbors who can't get out of Trump's way down with them. It's just too soon for them to see that.
They can't anticipate what likely follows from their choice like their smarter neighbors can, who are now nervously sheltering in place during the calm before the coming storm, or else making plans to relocate. These unseeing people will have to be hit to know that anything is wrong, and even then, they'll likely misunderstand what is happening to them and why. They'll be less happy but won't see themselves or their choices as the problem.
Millions of the Americans who knew better are looking to separate themselves from these people and the effects of their choices. This describes how I felt and feel about MAGA America:
As I said, in my opinion, the process that generated those people is the root problem, and it began with the repealing of the Fairness Doctrine which could be called the root problem leading to the successful propagandizing of America, at which time America was mortally wounded and is only now dying from the consequences. The indoctrination won't stop, the susceptible won't heal, and if the House goes Republican, fascistic America has already intrenched itself in America for generations to come.
One could even identify a prior problem to the repeal and call IT the root problem: the failure of liberal America to successfully resist the repealing of that law.
And if the Dems hold the House this time? It's just a matter of time before the indoctrinated give fascistic Republicans the whole government.
I think there will be major changes very soon in America. Lots of people will loose their jobs I think, and all the extra dollars freed by this, will disappear in the pockets of the very rich.
Would be interesting to keep score, how many billions the billionaires will grab from the poor this time. During Covid, most billionaires enriched themselves without any shame
Trump seems the perfect puppet to accomplish this dollar shift from poor to very rich
I didn't vote because it's an either/or fallacy. There are other explanations for what happened. Here's an article I tend to agree with (also posted in another thread): Maureen Dowd: Democrats and the case of mistaken identity politics
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
And cowardly, and cruel.
And kind, and selfless and courageous.
The question is, why has the US electorate opted to be one thing, and not another?
PureX
Veteran Member
They are feeling angry, and hopeless. And most of it is justified, even if many are quite wrong about who is to blame.
There comes a point when people will pull the roof down even upon their own heads just to create a passage out of an endlessly locked building.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Let's say that article is correct. It means that when given the chance to pick between a candidate that represents misogyny and xenophobia, and a candidate that (in their minds at least) represents identity politics, americans picked the former. What does that say about americans?
PureX
Veteran Member
For many decades, whenever the republicans took power, there has been a 'feeding frenzy' among the rich and greedy. They like to call this a "good economy", but it's really only good for them. This one will be a doozy, as they say, because they know it may be the last. And a whole lot of Americans will end up broke, jobless, homeless, in prison, deported, or dead. And the rich criminals will just move to their mansions in Spain or wherever once the U.S. is used up.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Tony Blair got re-elected in 2005 despite taking the U.K. into an illegal war, on the coattails of America. But that war, and the loss of faith it engendered in the population helped keep the British Labour Party out of power for 14 years.
Electors punish left leaning parties for warmongering, because they see that as a betrayal; they don’t punish right wing parties for the same crime, because they expect the right to be warlike. And they expect the right to be materialistic, selfish, and morally compromised.
The left are generally held to higher standards, and when they demonstrably fail to meet those standards, they instantly lose the support of not only dreamers and idealists, but also of those electors most inclined to vote on the basis of sincerely held principles and beliefs.
If one doesn't act to minimise evil they will be subject to maximum evil whether they feel their failure to act makes them partially culpable or not in my view.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Excuse my picking one part of a very long (and interesting) post.
I would take it back a step further. I was around in the 1970s in England when the Unions (that I support in principle) were doing their best to ruin the economy. That may not have been how the majority saw it, but a minority wanted to institute communism in place of the fairly mild socialism that existed then. They understood a truism, that communism has never taken over a country where the majority of the people felt reasonably comfortable in their lives. So they attempted to change that. It didn't happen, but we got Thatcherism instead.
It seem that has happened in the US without a deliberate attempt to bring it about, and so, desperate people have been fertile ground for the planting of memes about scapegoats that are the "cause of all their problems". Jews for the Nazis, immigrants, LGBTQ folks and the "woke" left today.
I don't think there is lot of doubt about who caused this. The "billionaires" who have been working to overthrow FDR's "socialism" ever since it started. It puzzles me that they would do this. Oh, I see that they want to get richer and richer, but why? Even from a totally selfish point of view, it doesn't work for them long term. They were fine being simply very rich (as opposed to obscenely rich) and while the middle class had a comfortable life nobody cared much about it. They then made the mistake that the French aristocracy made, who set no limits on their avarice, and eventually lost their heads literally as well as metaphorically. Does our "aristocracy" not see the guillotines waiting in the future?