Well, I would certainly appreciate it if they stopped killing civilians all over the world and stopped oppressing people. I do realize that most of the people they kill are fellow Muslims, though.
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I would have no beef with Islam if...
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Yes, I believe many of the policies and destruction of other cultures, in the Old Testament to be wrong, and I fight with God a lot!
Okay so do you think "I'm more than willing to love and respect [Christianity], but I have an increasing suspicion, that there is just something intrinsically toxic about the Faith itself, that is making it impossible to integrate into an enlightened, civilized, ecumenical world" is also true of Christianity because Christians have historically and currently use passages from the old testament to oppress women, gays, etc, even to the point of severe violence? Would you say that they're misinterpreting it or that there's other interpretations to be had?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I would say that, Christians should follow the example of Christ, who lived a meek and humble nonviolent life, told people to turn the other cheek, and to love their enemies, and he forgave those who crucified him.
I would agree, that there is something intrinsically toxic about using the Bible as a person's sole rule of faith and theology.
Much of the Bible is easily taken out of context, or was applied to ancient Israel at that time, and was not something Christians were supposed to follow.
I have lived in the poor impoverished areas, and seen the Catholic Church doing more than any other institution, to feed the hungry, give clothing and shelter to the needy and homeless, and the church builds schools and hospitals all over the place to care for the sick and instruct the ignorant.
I see the church growing more and more lenient and friendly towards other religions and taboo practices and philosophies.
If I could see the same progress in Islam on average, I would be an advocate for Islam.
(I had a really crappy night sleep so please forgive me if this is meandering and not quite as clear as you or I would like it to be.)
It kind of ties back into the question of 'what is it exactly you're trying to reform?' I'm sure a lot of people during early push back against colonialism thought that it was inherently a Christian principal, as plenty of leaders who were Christian attempted to use bible justifications to spearhead it. So in that respect there was most certainly a Christian reformation in respect to how Christians viewed colonialism as it related to their Christian worldview. But colonialism wasn't inseparable from Christianity, because otherwise Christianity wouldn't still exist today. And even though there's still hold outs of colonialist thinking, we're pretty comfortable today separating Christianity as a concept and ideology from colonialism as a concept and ideology.
But with arguments I see against extremist Islamic states is to state that the extreme political positions are inseparable from Islam. So the only way for us to progress forward away from extreme Islamic states is to get rid of Islam, rather than get rid of the political movement. To me assuming that Islam = Totalitarian government with oppressive behavior is no more a true assumption than Christianity = Totalitarian government with oppressive behavior or Atheist = Totalitarian government with oppressive behavior (in divorcing Atheism from Marxism, Marxism from Stalinism and other extreme anti-theistic regimes.)
I definitely want reform in the middle-East. But I don't believe that reform means the assumption that the only thing that has to happen is getting rid of Islam.
Me too, PopeADope! Me too! I'd have no beef at all with Islam if it weren't for the fact it's the very essence of demon-spawned evil, as you so fairly and insightfully point out.
Quite, as are most condemnatory threads on Islam or even Christianity. The one thing the European Enlightenment has demonstrated is that an all-too-frequently horrible, blood-thirsty religion can be reformed without destroying its essence or essential tenets. If people today could only learn from that.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
A groggy, but thoughtful reply. Thanks for that. My own take on this is due to tribal underpinnings all reform MUST come from within the Muslim world. For example, we should have roundly applauded the new King of Saudi Arabia for allowing women the right to drive. Though it sounds like something so painfully trivial from our standpoint, it is a big step for them and for that the Saudi king and people should be encouraged. I'm tired though, so I'll stop there.
stvdv
Veteran Member
From Original Post "...respecting what other people hold as sacred etc., I would find Islam to be a very beautiful religion, that I would even advocate for.
"The below is not alone for Christians, any religious person should respect believe system of others
Respect is: "If Christians don't fill in for others what they should believe"
Disrespect is: "If Christians tells others that they goto hell if they don't accept Jesus as their guru"
IMHE, so IMHO 90% at least of the Christians are still disrespectful [they judge religion of others]
As long as Christians create violence by telling non-Christians "you goto hell, unless you accept Jesus as your Guru", non-christians will react violently [and they have the right to do so IMHO]. I do not blame Muslims alone. Christians came first, they should give the right example [do not judge religion of others].
People should stop pointing fingers at others' believe-system, only then peace is possible.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Interpretation of Quran is not Quran itself.
Hadith was collected some 250/300 years after Muhammad. Please
Regards
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I agree!From Original Post "...respecting what other people hold as sacred etc., I would find Islam to be a very beautiful religion, that I would even advocate for.
Respect is: "If Christians don't fill in for others what they should believe"
Disrespect is: "If Christians tells others that they goto hell if they don't accept Jesus as their guru"
IMHE, so IMHO 90% at least of the Christians are still disrespectful [they judge religion of others]
As long as Christians create violence by telling non-Christians "you goto hell, unless you accept Jesus as your Guru", non-christians will react violently [and they have the right to do so IMHO]. I do not blame Muslims alone. Christians came first, they should give the right example [do not judge religion of others].
People should stop pointing fingers at others' believe-system, only then peace is possible.
Christians are guilty of some very unchristian behavior. Myself included.
It is a shame! I find Christianity has the potential to be very toxic, especially when people take the Bible as the sole rule of sacred Theology, and follow Old Testament commands and examples, that were for ancient Israel, not for Christians.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
as I said, there is much that is good in Islam that I admire.
But there are regimes that are for enforcing laws that oppress hundreds of millions of people, and straight-up ruin millions of lives.
If that was not going on, I would be an advocate for Islam, and not have a distaste for it.
I used to defend and praise Islam, and say "why can't Christians be more like Muslims, why can't Christians pray 5 times a day, be that counter cultural, fast, and have such reverence, dedication, and submission to God as the Muslims do"?
Augustus
…
A major justification for colonialism, especially regarding Africa, was rationalistic/scientific racialist beliefs regarding the inferiority of 'primitive' races. Colonialism was well supported among educated progressives for this reason.
Civilisation, Christianity, Commerce were often intertwined in justifications as the foundations and successes of Western society.
Opposition to colonialism came from classical liberals who saw it violating principles like free markets, and Marxists/socialists who saw it as another form of economic exploitation.
Can't recall where this comes from, or how accurate it is now, but I think it tells a tale.
(now found thanks to another )Gay relationships are still criminalised in 72 countries, report finds (2017)
Islam would be far more acceptable for many probably if it wasn't so seemingly aggressive, and the fact that the belief is held above all other considerations for many. Not really going to be acceptable to all those who have no religions or another religion most likely.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, in some other countries is sometimes works the other way around-- unfortunately. Killing in the name of "God" has long been an international pastime.
I don't condone violence, but given the centuries that India has been invaded and conquered by Muslims and Christians, Hindu temples destroyed, Hindus converted to Christianity by bribery and subterfuge, it's no wonder, and certainly understandable that things reach the point of explosion. Hindu temples and images are being destroyed even these days by Muslims.
Absolutely... I just thought since someone spoke on Islam, then they spoke on Christianity, I though i would bring in all the others too!
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Absolutely... two wrongs always make a right.
OHHH... wait a minute, Christianity was spread into India before they were "conquered". The Indian king had the Apostle Thomas lanced with many lances. Was he conquering Inida? Or just sharing his faith.
My point is simply all faiths have a history.
And historically, Christianity started with the basis of love. How about Hinduism?
As a Christian, I don't condone that type of violence either.
