IDF publishes unedited footage showing Hamas equipment in al-Shifa hospital

[Bthoth]

I dont think they planted them, but it does remind me more of Bush Jr and his abysmall, embarassing and terrible response to 9/11 (I must hate Americans according to some).

Which 'some' ............ paint a roundel on them.

 

[Bthoth]

I've come across stories where Iran isn't logistically supplying arms but rather they are teaching them to make their own arms and receive professional military training.

This...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/09/iran-support-hamas-training-weapons-israel/

I saw that feed too. Which is rather scary as creating weapons is only limited by know how and materials.

It's about like what moses did with the commandments and jesus did with bathing giving the people a chance to be equal to their superiors.

Very dangerous.

Heck did you know that 2 golf-ball sized amounts of u-235 is enough to start fission (have a nuke)?

Or that with electricity and water you could enable hydrogen which is 3 times the BTU of gasoline?

And this...

MSN

I have known for decades that educated terrorist could do far more damage than HAMAS or al queda combined.

Is that why oppressing the population is warranted? To limit what they can learn to fight the extremist.

Did you know that zionism requires that mount (city of blood) to build a temple and return to animal sacrificing?

That the whole divide is over a stupid hill?

 

[rosends]

And so far, all that the IDF has to show for it are a variety of claims and a video that leaves more questions than it purports to answer.

The damage that Israel has done to its image and global standing with its handling of this war is more than almost anyone else could have dreamed of doing. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the IDF has antagonized or repulsed millions around the world with its actions to an extent that will reverberate for years to come, especially as the current generation get older and some of them reach positions of power.

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

View attachment 84769

Oh, please, not the victim card. You can't support a state that is murdering civilians by the thousands, denying them basic resources for survival, keeping a few million people in a ghetto with gun towers where they're constantly monitored and controlled, building illegal settlements and occupying land, etc. and then play the victim and whine when people of good conscience are revolted and angered over it.

 

[Bthoth]

If someone is incited by hypothetical
questions that are relevant, then that
is something they must deal with.
It shouldn't prevent me from posting.

Again, i see your point but please let's keep violent or such types of discussion off the forum.

Please.

 

[rosends]

Oh, please, not the victim card.

What victim card? I'm not claiming to be a victim, just pointing out a realization which has united people.

You can't support a state that is murdering civilians by the thousands, denying them basic resources for survival, keeping a few million people in a ghetto with gun towers where they're constantly monitored and controlled, building illegal settlements and occupying land, etc. and then play the victim and whine when people of good conscience are revolted and angered over it.

Good thing that that isn't happening.
I can support a state that follows the rules of war, acts morally in its pursuit of defending its citizenry, provides humanitarian aid where none is required, and gives land to people (even displacing its own citizens) so that those people can move in and set up their own place, with borders.

It amuses me when pointing out facts and reality makes people lash out and say that I can't point out facts. Call it whatever you want, but it is facts and facts don't care if you think they are unfair.

 

[Bthoth]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

View attachment 84769

Israel are the dross, not the Jews.

Even the cartoon exposes IDF methodology. Incapable of addressing why the boos but points at another issue.

 

[rosends]

Israel are the dross, not the Jews.

Good thing I had "dross" on my Bthoth bingo card!

Even the cartoon exposes IDF methodology. Incapable of addressing why the boos but points at another issue.

explaining why the boos? Surely you jest -- the boos are because we refuse to die. There -- all explained.

 

[Bthoth]

Good thing I had "dross" on my Bthoth bingo card!

Since you dont read tanakh. I am glad to be your card holder

explaining why the boos? Surely you jest -- the boos are because we refuse to die. There -- all explained.

If there was no guilt, there would be nothing to fear.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Good thing that that isn't happening.

Please let us know when you wish to join us in reality.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Surely you jest -- the boos are because we refuse to die. There -- all explained.

You really think everyone who criticizes the Israeli government or Zionism wants Jews to die, including the Jewish people who do the same? That's hysterics to the extreme!

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, i see your point but please let's keep violent or such types of discussion off the forum.

Please.

No, wrongful violence is under discussion.
My goal is to influence others to eschew it.
This war & related issues are inevitably
going to make many uncomfortable.
We should optimize the balance between
discomfort & persuasion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof.

Proof of what, precisely?

The Times of Israel is now reporting ...

In a CBS interview, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saysthat Israel had “strong indications” that at least some of the hostages were held in Gaza’s main Shifa Hospital, “which is one of the reasons we entered the hospital.”​

​

However, he goes on, “If they were, they were taken out.”​

​

He says that Israel has “intelligence about the hostages.” But, he notes, “the less I say about it the better.”​

Let's hope he manages something better than this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

View attachment 84769

I do hope no one here views all of us American members as being the same as Uncle Sam's foriegn and domestic policy. I hope no one judges individual members by the policy of the state they live in.
What the IDF and Netanyahu do isn't a reflection of the average Jew or Isrealite. That basically holds true for most people in most states for the sum of the existence of the state. Especially when it comes to war.
Or think of it like the Norse compared to vikings. The Norse were mostly farmers and other laborers trying to scratch out am existence in hard lands. Vikings, or pirates, on the other hand, was more of a profession that was overwhelming men who were rambunctious, quarrelsome, fighters who were driven by testosterone first and last. It's funny and bizarre that we glorify those who were such a plague to many of our ancestors. Most Norse though likely knew how to use am axe or sword for combat and wanted nothing to do with it like the average Saxon guy called to serve in the fryrd when the vikings invaded. They'd rather be home tending to their flocks and crops and there for their family and largely don't care who rules as lomg as they're left alone to that in peace.

 

[libre]

I'm sure Israel captures and ties up kids (probably terrified crying and screaming) and shoots them dead like Hamas does.

Of course not, only the Palestinian barbarians would do such a thing.

The Israeli military detention system is fair - the Palestinian Children even get a 14% chance that they won't be beaten by Israeli soldiers during arrest or in custody.

Defenceless: The Impact of Israeli Military Detention on Palestinian Children | Save the Children’s Resource Centre

Growing up amidst military occupation and conflict has had a profound impact on Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza. It has impacted every aspect of their lives, from their safety and development to their psychosocial wellbeing and mental health

resourcecentre.savethechildren.net

 

[Harel13]

Please let us know when you wish to join us in reality.

Big talk from someone who denies that babies were mutilated.

Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas | Fact check

The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks.

www.usatoday.com

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

Poynter, PolitiFact 'fact check' misleads on beheadings - JNS.org

If these organizations are the credible fact checkers they claim to be, they owe readers an apology.

www.jns.org

You really think everyone who criticizes the Israeli government or Zionism wants Jews to die, including the Jewish people who do the same? That's hysterics to the extreme!

What's going on today in your campuses and city streets isn't regular legitimate criticism of Israel.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/10/31/antisemitism-college-campuses-jewish-hamas-gaza/

Cornell Professor “Exhilarated” by Hamas’s Attack Defends Remark - The Cornell Daily Sun

At a rally for Palestine in the City of Ithaca on Sunday, Prof. Russell Rickford said he was “exhilarated” by Hamas’s attack on Israel, which provoked outrage.

cornellsun.com

Man Charged With Threatening to Kill Jewish Family in Racially-Motivated Attack in Los Angeles | Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office

da.lacounty.gov

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213515513/suspect-arrested-in-death-of-jewish-protestor-in-southern-california

MLK embraced Israel. Does BLM embrace Hamas? - The Boston Globe

Too many people have turned a blind eye to the antisemitic bile in progressive Black circles. But now, denial is impossible.

www.bostonglobe.com

Keep sticking your head in the ground, it changes nothing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

View attachment 84769

This is the sort of one-sided speech that only serves to inflame tensions and doesn't consider the concerns of the people on the "other side"—that is, Palestinians and anyone else who has people they love or care about in Gaza. This is not a game with "boos" and "cheers," and considering the extent of the death and suffering that the IDF has caused civilians in Gaza, I see the above cartoon quite similarly to how I would see a cartoon supporting Hamas and gloating over how "boos" for the October 7 attack "mean nothing." That's how ill-thought-out and unhelpful I find the above cartoon and the casually dismissive sentiment expressed in it to be.

You've also said in other posts that Israel is not occupying any Palestinian territory, despite the fact that per international law and the current positions of most countries on the planet, this is exactly what it is doing to the West Bank. That statement makes me wonder whether you believe that a Palestinian state should exist at all. Do you believe in a two-state solution, or do you want Israel to be the only sovereign state in the region where Israel and Palestinian territories currently are?

Also, I haven't seen you acknowledge any criticism of the IDF whatsoever in this thread; you've only dismissed or minimized all of it before posting the strange statement that the IDF has "inspired the world." For someone to understand and productively discuss other people's points, they have to acknowledge that others have valid concerns in the first place, not categorically dismiss criticism and then post a cartoon to mock it.

Ehud Barak had this to say about Israel's public image in relation to the war:

TEL AVIV — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may be digging in for a “long and difficult war” but former leader Ehud Barak fears Israel has only weeks left to eliminate Hamas, as public opinion — most significantly in the U.S. — rapidly swings against its attacks on Gaza.

In an exclusive interview with POLITICO, the former prime minister and chief of the Israel Defense Forces also suggested a multinational Arab force could have to take control of Gaza after the military campaign, to help usher in a return of Mahmoud Abbas’ Palestinian Authority to take over from Hamas. Even with that change of the political order in Gaza, however, Barak stressed the return to diplomacy aimed at the creation of a Palestinian state was a very remote prospect.

Barak, who led Israel between 1999 and 2001, observed the rhetoric of U.S. officials had shifted in recent days with a mounting chorus of calls for a humanitarian pause in the fighting. The sympathy generated toward Israel in the immediate wake of October 7, when Hamas launched the deadliest terrorist attack on Israel in the Jewish state’s 75-year history, was now diminishing, he worried.

Israel has only weeks to defeat Hamas as global opinion sours, former PM Ehud Barak says

Ex-military chief also suggested a multinational Arab force could have to take control in Gaza to help transition away from Hamas.

www.politico.eu

Meanwhile, at least two American diplomats in the Arab world have directly warned Biden about the damage to the US' image due to supporting Israel in the current war:

The Biden administration has received stark warnings from American diplomats in the Arab world that its strong support for Israel’s destructive and deadly military campaign in Gaza “is losing us Arab publics for a generation,” according to a diplomatic cable obtained by CNN.

The cable underscores profound concern among American officials about the growing anger against the United States that erupted soon after Israel launched its operations against Hamas, following the militant group’s attacks in Israel on October 7 that left over 1,400 Israelis dead.

“We are losing badly on the messaging battlespace,” reads a Wednesday cable from the US Embassy in Oman, citing conversations with “a wide range of trusted and sober-minded contacts.”

The robust US support for Israel’s actions is being seen, the cable warns, “as material and moral culpability in what they consider to be possible war crimes.”

The cable from the embassy was written by the second-highest US official in Muscat and sent to, among others, the White House’s National Security Council, the CIA and the FBI. While it’s just one cable from a regional embassy, it provides a private snapshot of the alarm over the growing anti-US wave sweeping the Middle East.

Another cable obtained by CNN from the American embassy in Cairo relayed back to Washington, as part of a daily media summary, the commentary in a state-run Egyptian newspaper that “President Biden’s cruelty and disregard for Palestinians exceeded all previous US presidents.”

Biden administration privately warned by American diplomats of growing fury against US in Arab world

There's also this poll, which is aligned with many other reports and the abovementioned warnings from diplomats even if, like many other polls, it may not perfectly reflect public opinions:

WASHINGTON, Nov 15 (Reuters) - U.S. public support for Israel's war against Hamas militants in Gaza is eroding and most Americans think Israel should call a ceasefire to a conflict that has ballooned into a humanitarian crisis, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll.

Some 32% of respondents in the two-day opinion poll, which closed on Tuesday, said "the U.S. should support Israel" when asked what role the United States should take in the fighting. That was down from 41% who said the U.S. should back Israel in a Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted Oct. 12-13.

The share saying "the U.S. should be a neutral mediator" rose to 39% in the new poll from 27% a month earlier. Four percent of respondents in the poll said the U.S. should support Palestinians and 15% said the U.S. shouldn't be involved at all, both similar readings to a month ago.

US public support for Israel drops; majority backs a ceasefire, Reuters/Ipsos shows

U.S. public support for Israel's war against Hamas militants in Gaza is eroding and most Americans think Israel should call a ceasefire to a conflict that has ballooned into a humanitarian crisis, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos poll.

www.reuters.com

I find that there's a lot to discuss concerning this topic, from how Israeli and Palestinian leaders could avoid war in the future to what the optimal path would be to seek lasting peace (which, in my opinion, would have the highest chance of being achieved via a two-state solution). What I don't see as helpful or realistic in the slightest is completely brushing aside the suffering and death that the IDF has caused in Gaza, Israel's decades-long occupation of the West Bank, the smothering of Gaza to the point that it is an open-air prison, or Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilians, especially the October 7 pogrom. Denying any of this will not make it go away, nor will it provide a long-term solution to address the circumstances that have enabled Hamas' violent radicalism to take root in the first place.

I should also mention that when I first joined this forum in 2011, my view, like many in my region, was that Israel shouldn't exist at all, and I hadn't encountered counterarguments to that position or discussed the issue at length with anyone who believed otherwise. Discussions on this forum were a large part of why I moved away from that position and now see some major problems with it (whether humanitarian or political ones), and I support a two-state solution instead. This is part of why I value discussions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict where I find that both I and the other person are making an effort to listen to each other and understand each other's concerns, despite the extremely sensitive and contentious nature of the topic. So far, however, I haven't seen such an effort in your posts in this thread, and the cartoon you posted further solidifies this.

I would be happy to discuss this if your goal is mutual understanding of each other's concerns, especially as this forum is one of very few outlets where I could have the opportunity to have such a discussion. On the other hand, if your goal is just to defend Israel and dismiss criticism thereof (such as by branding it "antisemitic virulence"), I don't see the point in pursuing this any further.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hamas- let's go and tie up these kids and then we shoot them dead.

Israel- let's kill hamas and hope there are no children in the vicinity, although there is a possibility of that.

See the mentality?

Hope there are no children in the vicinity? Are you serious?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Densely populated areas will have high death tolls..

Drop a bomb on New York city and one on Tombstone Arizona. Which place will have the highest death toll of children and adults?

If Hamas gave a crap about Palestinians(adults or children) they wouldn't be fighting from being hidden within them.
If Hamas wants a fight/war so bad, take it out of Gaza and get after it

Perhaps they should sit in Arizona?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Gee, I see that the IDF has shown many sources and varieties of proof. What the IDF has done has inspired the world while Hamas's actions have revealed the pervasiveness of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence around the globe and the Jewish community, many of whom are waking up to the realization that we are hated more than we wanted to believe, has never been more galvanized.

View attachment 84769

You're right, it's totally uncool for people to be against killing civilians, and it's totally natural for people to justify killing civilians based on the religion/race/ethnicity of the people doing the killing (and, implicitly, based on the religion/race/ethnicity of the civilians being killed), and to accuse people who are against killing civilians of being against the religion/race/ethnicity of the people killing civilians.

Totally normal attitude being expressed here by a perfectly normal, average, sensible apologist for killing civilians.