Idolatry in Islam

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Prove anyone worships the Black Stone or station of Abraham pbuh.

Okay.

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said: "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914:

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

]

Your own sources show that Muslims acted reverentially toward the Black Stone because Muhammad did so. That's a double whammy because that's akin to worshipping a cult leader. What would you call it if people today joined a movement led by a charismatic man and mimicked the things he did? I rest my case.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker. It's only special significance being, it was sent down directly from Heaven to mark the spot of the first House of Worship.

Yet Muslims act as though they worship the Black Stone; globally they direct their bows towards it while praying and during the Hajj they circumambulate (i.e. move around in a ritualised fashion) the Black Stone. If literally any other religion did this, Muslims would let fly with accusations of idolatry. For a faith that so heavily frowns on idol worship, it seems a pretty big part of Islam.

It is only fair to point out doctrinary inconsistencies for people who swear to live by it.

Not to mention the fact some Muslims expend so much effort denigrating others for engaging in the same behaviours as they.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Which makes their idolatry of the god-concept and of the Qur'an all the more ironic and remarkable.

I still don't understand how seeing our God is idolatry.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Your own sources show that Muslims acted reverentially toward the Black Stone because Muhammad did so. That's a double whammy because that's akin to worshipping a cult leader. What would you call it if people today joined a movement led by a charismatic man and mimicked the things he did? I rest my case.

Idolatry is setting up partners with God, to ask something created to help you, to pray to something created etc. The Hadiths show there is no idolatry regarding the black stone.

Yet Muslims act as though they worship the Black Stone; globally they direct their bows towards it while praying and during the Hajj they circumambulate (i.e. move around in a ritualised fashion) the Black Stone. If literally any other religion did this, Muslims would let fly with accusations of idolatry. For a faith that so heavily frowns on idol worship, it seems a pretty big part of Islam.

The Black stone and Kaaba are not worshipped. You certainly wouldn't pray on them if they were would you.

 

[Muslim-UK]

People performed Circumambulations when the Kaaba was destroyed, and when the Black Stone was stolen for Decades. The Location of the Kaaba is practically at the Centre of the Earth, and so for that reason people would perform the hajj without the Kaaba or Black Stone, just to honour God's chosen spot for the first House of Worship. God says, He would rather it was destroyed than a single Muslim risk their blood trying to protect it.

 

[Sunstone]

I've got to largely go with the Muslim take on this. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the Stone is no more an idol to most Muslims than the millions of statues in India are idols to most Hindus. To me, idolatry would be the case if people prayed to the stone for positive intervention in their lives, etc. Or if they set up the Stone as a substitute or equal of deity. But to merely reverence it seems to me no different in principle than the way many Christians reverence various works of art, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling. At least, that's my take on this.

 

[Repox]

There is a kind of idolatry in the Koran, It is "plagiarism"...............If Allah is God, why did he take stories and patriarchs from the Jewish holy book? It seems strange for the true God (Allah) to plagiarize the Bible in order to establish a new religion. Not only a new religion, but according to Islamic clerics, the one and only world religion!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I still don't understand how seeing our God is idolatry.

Simply put. It is putting man (or object) equal to god.

Unless jesus has no father, by trinitarian view, the mainstream christian worldview is idolotry.

When you make someone a god, you, by defintion, make him or her an idol.

 

[LuisDantas]

I still don't understand how seeing our God is idolatry.

Define idolatry.

 

[Lyndon]

There is a kind of idolatry in the Koran, It is "plagiarism"...............If Allah is God, why did he take stories and patriarchs from the Jewish holy book? It seems strange for the true God (Allah) to plagiarize the Bible in order to establish a new religion. Not only a new religion, but according to Islamic clerics, the one and only world religion!

Like the way Jesus Plagiarized the Jewish scriptures????

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think he's confused about a lot of things!!

Things like what the definition of trolling is?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Idolatry is setting up partners with God, to ask something created to help you, to pray to something created etc.

Right. Directing your prayers towards and ritually moving around something looks suspiciously like idolatry. Again, if it were members of another religion doing this, Muslims would be decrying their 'idolatry'.

The Hadiths show there is no idolatry regarding the black stone.

And the actual practices of Muslims exhibit behaviour that looks remarkably like idol worship.

The Black stone and Kaaba are not worshipped. You certainly wouldn't pray on them if they were would you.

You might if you wanted to be as close as possible to the Stone.

People performed Circumambulations when the Kaaba was destroyed, and when the Black Stone was stolen for Decades.

Interesting - when was the Kaaba destroyed and the Black Stone stolen?

The Location of the Kaaba is practically at the Centre of the Earth,

So is literally any other arbitrarily designated point.

and so for that reason people would perform the hajj without the Kaaba or Black Stone, just to honour God's chosen spot for the first House of Worship. God says, He would rather it was destroyed than a single Muslim risk their blood trying to protect it.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Right. Directing your prayers towards and ritually moving around something looks suspiciously like idolatry. Again, if it were members of another religion doing this, Muslims would be decrying their 'idolatry'.

And the actual practices of Muslims exhibit behaviour that looks remarkably like idol worship.

All part of the Pilgrimage going back to the time of Abraham pbuh

Here's what one of the most respected Jewish Scholars of all time has to say about Islam and Idolatry:

In his Letter to Obadiah the Proselyte Maimonides states clearly: “These Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers in the least, and [paganism] has been long since cut off from their mouths and their hearts, and they worship the singular God properly and without any blemish.”

You might if you wanted to be as close as possible to the Stone.

Looking at the previous pic I posted, their backsides would be facing the direction of the black stone.

As others have pointed out, it's no more idolatry than people kissing a cross, kissing the Pope's hand or touching the Turin Shroud.

Interesting - when was the Kaaba destroyed and the Black Stone stolen?

https://english.aawsat.com/theaawsa...tone-lost-for-22-years-in-the-4th-century-a-h

During the civil war between the caliph Abd al-Malik and Ibn Zubayr, who controlled Mecca, the Kaaba was set on fire in 683 CE. Reportedly, the Black Stone broke into three pieces and Ibn Zubayr reassembled it with silver. He rebuilt the Kaaba in wood and stone, following Abraham’s pbuh original dimensions.

The Kaaba's shape has changed over time too:

The Kaba in Makkah: It's size and history | SoundVision.com

So is literally any other arbitrarily designated point.

Well there's no denying Saudi Arabia has a link to previous Prophets and according to our traditions, the Kaaba was the first house of worship appointed for mankind. Moses pbuh sought sanctuary in Arabia, Abraham pbuh originally came from nearby Iraq. The Prophet spoken of in Isaiah 42 and Deuteronomy 18:18 came from Arabia.

 

[Augustus]

Interesting - when was the Kaaba destroyed and the Black Stone stolen?

Qarmatians - Wikipedia

 

[Quintessence]

I've got to largely go with the Muslim take on this. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the Stone is no more an idol to most Muslims than the millions of statues in India are idols to most Hindus. To me, idolatry would be the case if people prayed to the stone for positive intervention in their lives, etc. Or if they set up the Stone as a substitute or equal of deity. But to merely reverence it seems to me no different in principle than the way many Christians reverence various works of art, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling. At least, that's my take on this.

By extension, doesn't this mean most (if not all) cases of alleged idolatry are not actually such? Seems to me the whole word was invented through gross misunderstanding of other people's practices.

 

[Muslim-UK]

By extension, doesn't this mean most (if not all) cases of alleged idolatry are not actually such? Seems to me the whole word was invented through gross misunderstanding of other people's practices.

That's why no faith/religion is judged until they explain their practices. If you wish to correct misconceptions relating to a particular faith, let us know and we can perhaps learn something of benefit. God created various Nations and Tribes, so that we come to know one another on common ground.

 

[LuisDantas]

And yet you accuse Trinitarianism and Henotheism of being idolatry?

 

[Muslim-UK]

And yet you accuse Trinitarianism and Henotheism of being idolatry?

I looked at both of those concepts with you remember and you fell silent.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because there was no logical point to comment on. It was all entirely arbitrary, even unbelievable.

Did you assume otherwise? I am sorry for not having been more incisive then.

 

[PatrickLeo]

There used to be an idol of ancestor Ibrahim placed here. They have not removed this particular idol from the site.

Used to look similar to this.

 

[PatrickLeo]

@PatrickLeo : How would you define "idol"?

An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity or spirit to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with admiration, adoration, or devotion.