Idolising prophet or not

[Fatihah]

That's clearly incorrect, Fatihah. Every faithful and devote Muslim venerates the Holy Prophet Muhammad. Period. There is no in-between. This is also the conflict between Christians and Muslims today in that the Divinity of both Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad are not at all properly understood by either party today.

Why do you think the Blessed Beauty [Muhammad] said, "When here will come the resurrection Day, I shall be the leader of the Prophets and their spokesman and one who will intercede for them without boast." [Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 326]... or "I am Muhammed, son of Abdullah, son of Abdul Muttaleb. Allah created creations and made me the best of them. Then he divided them into two groups and made me the best of the two." [Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 323]

He [Muhammad] alludes to His divinity numerous times in the Hadith and the Qur'an exonerates Him as the most precious thing in all the universe! So, yes, idolization of the Holy Prophet Muhammad has and is within the Muslim community as much as in the Christian community, however, to varying degrees. Christians do worship Jesus and Muslims worship neither Christ nor Muhammad, yet their veneration is as intense and the theological understanding of their Prophet-Founder is lacking, particularly in the Sunni community.

Response: Clearly the hadith speaks of nothing about divinity. Neither the word "divinity" nor a word synonymous to it is mentioned in the hadith. A statement can't mean something it clearly doesn't mention. The hadith clearly does not allude to divinity, but rather your statement alluding so.

 

[gnostic]

Sorry, but the hadith you quoted doesn't show Muhammad (SAW) alluding to his divinty, not to me anyway, and I'm sure not to most people. He was the Seal of the Prophets, and as such obviously the most perfect out of them but that doesn't make him divine or mean that he was alluding to divinity.

Sorry, tanuki, but how can you determine that Muhammad as being the best of prophets?

I thought Muhammad only see himself, as equal with other prophets, not the best.

And if Muhammad had any part with the writing of the Qur'an or hadiths, and he is seen as the "Seal of Prophets" or the "best", then he simply a vain and very arrogant man.

And I thought only perfection comes from God. Is Muhammad "perfect"?

Response: Clearly the hadith speaks of nothing about divinity. Neither the word "divinity" nor a word synonymous to it is mentioned in the hadith. A statement can't mean something it clearly doesn't mention. The hadith clearly does not allude to divinity, but rather your statement alluding so.

Are you joking, fatihah?

You have in past topics, made all sort of bold claims, especially in religion/science or creationism/evolution forums. Your quotes from the scripture and your interpretations often don't match. There are many statements made in the Qur'an which clearly don't say what you have interpret, and you've interpret it by twisting the words of the Qur'an, to suit your own agenda, which is turning the Qur'an into science textbooks.

How often have you don't that?

 

[Tanuki]

Sorry, tanuki, but how can you determine that Muhammad as being the best of prophets?

I thought Muhammad only see himself, as equal with other prophets, not the best.

And if Muhammad had any part with the writing of the Qur'an or hadiths, and he is seen as the "Seal of Prophets" or the "best", then he simply a vain and very arrogant man.

And I thought only perfection comes from God. Is Muhammad "perfect"?

If you actually read my post you will note that I didn't say 'best', I said 'most perfect [of them]' please do not misquote me. By that I meant that Muhammad (SAW) brought the final revelelation to mankind, and as such his message is the most relevant, and the one which is free from error. However, you are right, Muhammad (SAW) is only a man, like all the Prophets who came before him.

In relation Muhammad (SAW) being 'Seal of the Prophets', this isn't arrogance on his part. This epithet is given to him in the Noble Qur'an by God Almighty, as such who am I or you to question it?

You are right only Allah is perfect, but I return to my original post I said 'most perfect of them' i.e. of the Prophets. My intention was not that Muhammad (SAW), was better than any Prophet before him as all were infallible, but that given he came with the final message to mankind, that message which is still pristine today as it was then, then his message and as such he himself, is the 'most perfect'.

 

[gnostic]

If you actually read my post you will note that I didn't say 'best', I said 'most perfect [of them]' please do not misquote me.

Tanuki:

I did read what you have said, and the meaning of "most perfect out of them", does mean he (Muhammad) is better than Adam, Noah, Abraham, David (to me, David is not a prophet, but I know that Muslims as one), Jesus, etc. And if he is better than all of them (because you did say he is the most perfect), then you think he is the best, even if you are not using the word "best".

If you are saying "most perfect", then it would be the same as saying "best". The context of saying "and as such obviously the most perfect out of them [prophets]", is just another way of saying he is the "best prophet".

The "Seal of Prophets", would mean he is better than all who precede him.

I may have misquoted you by not using the exact words you've used, but the meanings of your "most perfect" and my "best" are exactly what you are implying. So I haven't mistaken your reference to him as being the best.

If you seriously don't think he is the best, than I would strongly suggest that you use words other than "most perfect" with regards to all prophets.

Would you care to rephrase what you have said, Tanuki?

 

[Tanuki]

No, I'm not going to rephrase what I said. 'Most perfect' is different from 'best', in that it denotes a position of honour and respect, whereas 'best' in my view is the kind of thing you would say in the playground in reference to sports.

It wasn't a competition between the Prophets' which I believe the word 'best' implies.

Ps 'Seal of the Prophets' in Islam denotes that he is the final Messenger and Prophet of God. Read up on a subject before you try and attack it.

 

[gnostic]

In relation Muhammad (SAW) being 'Seal of the Prophets', this isn't arrogance on his part. This epithet is given to him in the Noble Qur'an by God Almighty, as such who am I or you to question it?

But that only your view (as well as other Muslims' views). I don't see the Qur'an as being written by God or Allah. From my perspective, the Qur'an was composed by Muhammad and written by his followers. The claim of getting the scriptures from God, cannot be substantiated anymore than from the gold plates of Joseph Smith.

Also the constant references of Muhammad in the Qur'an, either directly or implied, doesn't make sense to me as scripture.

But that's a different story, which I won't get into, and totally unrelated to the topic of whether Muslims idolised Muhammad or not. The topic is not about the Qur'an or the hadiths, but how Muslims treat Muhammad.

 

[Fatihah]

Are you joking, fatihah?

You have in past topics, made all sort of bold claims, especially in religion/science or creationism/evolution forums. Your quotes from the scripture and your interpretations often don't match. There are many statements made in the Qur'an which clearly don't say what you have interpret, and you've interpret it by twisting the words of the Qur'an, to suit your own agenda, which is turning the Qur'an into science textbooks.

How often have you don't that?

Response: The better question is of why you are clearly asking a question and making a statement which you are guilty of. Why is that? And like always, you can't quote any post of mine as evidence of your claim to begin with, once again demonstrating a strawman attempt to disract the reader from seeing that you're the one guilty of what you allege.

 

[gnostic]

No, I'm not going to rephrase what I said. 'Most perfect' is different from 'best', in that it denotes a position of honour and respect, whereas 'best' in my view is the kind of thing you would say in the playground in reference to sports.

It wasn't a competition between the Prophets' which I believe the word 'best' implies.

But it is.

I don't know if English is your second or not, but I am guessing it is not, because you live in Scotland.

Clearly you are referring "them" as the prophets. And when you use the word "most" with adjective, often it is used that one is better than others. Put the 2 words ("most" and the adjective) together with them, then clearly you are saying one is better than others.

And in the case, of you saying "most perfect of out of them [prophets]", then you are saying he is better than other prophets. And if he is better than others, then undoubtedly you're saying he is the best.

If you don't want to rephrase your sentence, then fine. But I did not mistake your meaning, if you don't rephrase or correct what you are saying.

You are right only Allah is perfect, but I return to my original post I said 'most perfect of them' i.e. of the Prophets. My intention was not that Muhammad (SAW), was better than any Prophet before him as all were infallible, but that given he came with the final message to mankind, that message which is still pristine today as it was then, then his message and as such he himself, is the 'most perfect'.

There you go again.

"all were infallible"

I don't know what the Christians think, because they are odd birds. The Christians certainly think that Jesus was perfect and infallible, but not the prophets or disciples/apostles. But I do know the Jews don't view any of their prophets as being "infallible". Their god perhaps is "infallible" (though, I seriously think he is), but to the Jews the prophets are humans too, and are far from infallible.

Do you want examples?

Adam ate the fruit given to him by Eve. Is that a prophet proven to be infallible?

Noah, was said to be the first to grow grapes and make wine, got drunk and flashing himself. Is that a prophet who understood the consequence of drinking excessive?

David slept with another man's wife, and arrange for this husband to get kill in battle, so he could marry her off. Is that a prophet who is infallible?

Jonah knew that Assyrians would repent for their wickedness and God would spare Nineveh, and yet he tried to escape his duty as a prophet, and ended up in the whale's belly. Is disobeying God an act of someone who is infallible?

Do you want more?

Not that I believe any of these stories, but sorry, tanuki, if you want me take seriously what you have to say, then you will have to stop using words like "perfect" or "most perfect" or "infallible", etc, if you actually something else.

 

[Tanuki]

Tonto, or whatever you are called...Gnostic -

Infallibility of Prophets

 

[gnostic]

As interesting as the link was, this forum is a debate or discussion, so I would be more interested in your view, then being directed to another page.

The link should be used to supplement your own assertion, not simply supplying the link.

What do you think "infallible" mean?

And why do you think they are all "infallible"?

The link you gave me, the author says:

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htm]All[/url] the Prophets were infallible. They never committed a sin, minor or major, and their lives were spent doing virtuous deeds.

If being "infalliable" has to with being "sinless", then the author of this webpage has completely ignored what has happened in the bible. They were virtuous and faithful, but not sinless.

And the author contradict himself. He writes that they commit any sin, and yet, the author say earlier:

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htm][/url] God’s Messenger says that all the children of Adam make faults and err, and the best of those who make faults and err are the repentant.

Which is it? Are they infallible or not?

 

[Tanuki]

For a start, I agree with the assessment made in the article. Yes, it is a discussion/debate forum yet you seem to only want to pick a fight.

The article, states that yes the Prophets were infallible but what the article states is that the Prophets before Muhammad were also prone to error. In that sense they were infallible only on matters of doctrine and belief. However, as the Qur'an states Muhammad was protected from sin and error, and as such my initial statement stands 'he was the most perfect of them' whilst all are equal and all are human, definitely not divine.

As for not mentioning the Bible, a Muslim scholar would only use the Bible sparingly in discussion as Muslims believe that the original message of the Prophets has been corrupted over time and than only the Qur'an is perfect and free from error.

If you want a biblical view of the Prophets then ask in the Bible debates.

 

[gnostic]

Yes, it is a discussion/debate forum yet you seem to only want to pick a fight.

I don't think you have seen me in a fight, tanuki.

So far, my disagreement with you, comes from your poor choice of phrasings and you not understanding the context of what you are saying, and not about what you believe in, tanuki.

A example of this, is this paragraph of yours:

However, as the Qur'an states Muhammad was protected from sin and error, and as such my initial statement stands 'he was the most perfect of them' whilst all are equal and all are human, definitely not divine.

It is completely contradictory. If all are equals, then Muhammad can't be the "most perfect of them", because it still indicate he is the best, even if you don't use the word "best".

So I stand by my own assertion you are saying Muhammad are better than all other prophets.

Seriously how can you measure who is better than a prophet, when all the prophets were different? Is there are yardstick to measure?

• It like say who has bigger car or bigger yacht?
• Who can spit furthest or belch loudest?
• Who won the most wars or battles?
• Who has the bigger or holier scripture?
• Who's miracles are more flashy?
• And the Muslims all-time favorite argument - Who is the last prophet?

It is childish that I've frequently see Muslims and Christians have played. Both sides can be so egotistic and arrogant. It is why world of religions are so messed up today.

 

[Tanuki]

You are an extremely rude and arrogant little individual.

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say then there is no point in continuing this. I'll admit the differences are subtle and it's not the easiest thing in the world to get your head around, but the way I have phrased what I have said is the way I have phrased it, and I'm not about to change it because you don't understand it.

Muslims and Christians don't need to compare penis size, as it only seems to be people like yourself who are ever that insecure, so much so that all you do is attack another man's faith simply because you obviously fear it.

I'm really bored of you now.

 

[Cosmos]

In any case, I don't have anything further to say in the conversation or anything to prove--as I already have--and having a discussion with bigots is no fun. Not only has the Prophet Muhammad alluded to His divinity, but correct Gnostic, one can see the direct contradiction stated by Tanuki and Muslims in general. The Prophet Muhammad is the "most perfect" (Perfect Man) of the Prophets of God and a prophets are not just 'any' person, therefore, how is it that any Prophet of God does not have a divine nature? Why would the Prophet Muhammad state He is the most perfect thing in all of creation, including humankind, if He was not something else? Seal of the Prophets means He is the seal for the end of the Prophetic Cycle or age and a stamp of approval for the revalators before Him. My point stands: I have extensive knowldge of Islam, so I am not going to sit and listen to someone who has zero actual knowledge of the Baha'i teachings and theology tell someone about it through the lense of a bigot.

 

[gnostic]

You are an extremely rude and arrogant little individual.

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say then there is no point in continuing this. I'll admit the differences are subtle and it's not the easiest thing in the world to get your head around, but the way I have phrased what I have said is the way I have phrased it, and I'm not about to change it because you don't understand it.

Muslims and Christians don't need to compare penis size, as it only seems to be people like yourself who are ever that insecure, so much so that all you do is attack another man's faith simply because you obviously fear it.

It was rude of me, and for that I am sorry.

Living in Australia, I can be utterly and brutally frank (which is why I don't lie), so I understand that what I may say that may not seen rude to Australians, will be seen as in other countries or with other culture. I sometimes forget that something I may offend other cultural background. So I really do regret opening my big mouth and offending you, tanuki. I am deeply sorry.

So I have deleted and edited that 2nd last line. I hoped that you will accept my apologies.

 

[gnostic]

That's clearly incorrect, Fatihah. Every faithful and devote Muslim venerates the Holy Prophet Muhammad. Period. There is no in-between. This is also the conflict between Christians and Muslims today in that the Divinity of both Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad are not at all properly understood by either party today.
Why do you think the Blessed Beauty [Muhammad] said, "When here will come the resurrection Day, I shall be the leader of the Prophets and their spokesman and one who will intercede for them without boast." [Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 326]... or "I am Muhammed, son of Abdullah, son of Abdul Muttaleb. Allah created creations and made me the best of them. Then he divided them into two groups and made me the best of the two." [Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 323]

He [Muhammad] alludes to His divinity numerous times in the Hadith and the Qur'an exonerates Him as the most precious thing in all the universe! So, yes, idolization of the Holy Prophet Muhammad has and is within the Muslim community as much as in the Christian community, however, to varying degrees. Christians do worship Jesus and Muslims worship neither Christ nor Muhammad, yet their veneration is as intense and the theological understanding of their Prophet-Founder is lacking, particularly in the Sunni community.

Response: Clearly the hadith speaks of nothing about divinity. Neither the word "divinity" nor a word synonymous to it is mentioned in the hadith.

The hadiths that Cosmos had quoted may not speak of his divinity, but it does speak of Muhammad's arrogance and vanity.

Who in his right mind would compare himself as being the best or better than all previous prophets?

As I ask tanuki before, what yardstick do you measure Muhammad's "GREATNESS" to all others, including the whole history and rest of mankind?

He (Muhammad) has basically elevated himself as being the greatest and the best. One thing for certain, they are not the words of a humble servant of Allah, which he has professed to be.

 

[Fatihah]

The hadiths that Cosmos had quoted may not speak of his divinity, but it does speak of Muhammad's arrogance and vanity.

Who in his right mind would compare himself as being the best or better than all previous prophets?

As I ask tanuki before, what yardstick do you measure Muhammad's "GREATNESS" to all others, including the whole history and rest of mankind?

He (Muhammad) has basically elevated himself as being the greatest and the best. One thing for certain, they are not the words of a humble servant of Allah, which he has professed to be.

Response: Quote anything from the hadith, in which Muhammad(saw) claims to be the best or better than all of the prophets, if you are truthful.

 

[gnostic]

Didn't Cosmos just post it, back in post #19?

And I was referring to post #19.

 

[Fatihah]

Didn't Cosmos just post it, back in post #19?

And I was referring to post #19.

Response: Yet post 19 does not have a quote from you which states what part of the hadith says that Muhammad is better than or the best of all the prophets, as you say it does.

 

[gnostic]

Are you blind, fatihah? Or do you simply can't understand what you've read?

Read below:

"I am Muhammed, son of Abdullah, son of Abdul Muttaleb. Allah created creations and made me the best of them. Then he divided them into two groups and made me the best of the two." [Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 323]

I am not talking about Muhammad's divinity. Just his vanity.

All creations? That would include being "better than" all prophets too. Or don't you believe that there were other prophets before Muhammad?

*scoff*