Idolising prophet or not

[Tanuki]

...I've read "Baha'i Awareness" in-depth, so that is a useless way to counteract the truth. In any case... no matter who you are--Muslim or Christian, or otherwise--or what you say, you cannot make something not what it IS. Any half-educated person in the Baha'i Faith knows that our theology derives its root from Islamic theology, and only the two of you with your Sunni fundamentalism makes you believe differently. I wonder whose arrogance is greater: The person (you two) attempting to forcibly convert and argue with others or the one who openly loves all, sharing information for the sake of education? So sorry that your prejudice towards Shi'ites causes you consternation and anger, as the Muslim world today has no clue or wishes to know that they've followed a corrupt warrior state for nearly 1,400 years.

I'm not a Sunni. I was brought up Shia and adopted Ibadiyyah, so I have no problem with Shia Islam in the slightest. Get your facts right.

 

[Cosmos]

...No... get your facts straight...

Regardless of what sect you adhere to it does not change your bigoted attitude or eliminate your ignorance.

 

[Tanuki]

...No... get your facts straight...

Regardless of what sect you adhere to it does not change your bigoted attitude or eliminate your ignorance.

Sorry, I'm ignorant because I came to the conclusion that the Baha'i faith is a load of tosh, and that Mirza Hussein wasn't who he claimed to be? That's not ignorant or bigoted that is called using my head and doing what your religion tells one to do - 'independent investigation of truth' and all that.

 

[Cosmos]

Friend, reading your own posted comments as to your reasons for leaving the Baha'i Faith... it is more than evident you were not associated long at all... learned... or deepened in anything Baha'i whatsoever. You merely walked away--probably within weeks or months as most do--and decided to oppose it thereafter. That's not a conclusive reason or proof to discredit Baha'u'llah simply because you desire to stick with your religion of birth. As I've explained time and time again... the Teachings of Baha'u'llah are not something everyone immediately can grasp or comprehend in its entirety, as it challenges the understanding of the masses. I'll tell you what, the Principle of Independent Investigation of the Truth has awakened and illumined countless souls and continues to, because the influential Writings of Baha'u'llah encompasses every fulfillment in every age and religion.

 

[Tanuki]

Friend, reading your own posted comments as to your reasons for leaving the Baha'i Faith... it is more than evident you were not associated long at all... learned... or deepened in anything Baha'i whatsoever. You merely walked away--probably within weeks or months as most do--and decided to oppose it thereafter. That's not a conclusive reason or proof to discredit Baha'u'llah simply because you desire to stick with your religion of birth. As I've explained time and time again... the Teachings of Baha'u'llah are not something everyone immediately can grasp or comprehend in its entirety, as it challenges the understanding of the masses. I'll tell you what, the Principle of Independent Investigation of the Truth has awakened and illumined countless souls and continues to, because the influential Writings of Baha'u'llah encompasses every fulfillment in every age and religion.

Do you realise how arrogant you sound? People can't 'comprehend it in its entirety' - please! There is nothing that profound in it! It's wishy washy beyond belief! And if something doesn't match Baha'i theology you explain it away by saying the passage/writings aren't to be taken literally and are allegorical!

 

[Cosmos]

...You aren't very adept at explaining much of anything, Tanuki, other than everything that you are averse towards.

 

[Tanuki]

Oh please. Get over yourself Cosmos.

 

[Yaqub]

The fundamental point is that Baha'u'llah has attributes such as "Creator of existence" because He IS the Holy Spirit

The attribute of "Creator of Existence" is the attribute of the One True God, not of Bahaullah. If you believe Bahaullah is the "Creator of Existence", than that means you are not a monotheist (someone who believes in One God).

--as I have exhaustively spoken on--which is the active and creative Force or Divine Energy in the realm of creation! So, too, did the Blessed Beauty [Muhammad] (may all life be a sacrifice unto Him) create a new universe through the Will and Power of God through the inspiring words of His Revelation!

Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't create any universe. He was a prophet, he was born, and now he is dead. End of story. Only God created the seven heavens and the earth, no one shares in His attribute of being Al-Khaaliq (The Creator).

And to correct you... no mortal can reflect in perfection the Qualities and Attributes of God, which is why the Manifestations of God are borne in the Realms of Holiness (i.e. Worlds of God).

All human beings and mortals, whether prophets or not, are descended from Adam and all are born in the same way.

Further, if you really believe that Muhammad never claimed to have knowledge of the Ghaib (Unseen)... then you are poorly learned in your Salafi studies. Check the Qur'an again!

We read:
(Note some translations are more concise in translating the Arabic conveyance as "Neither" or "Nor is he [Muhammad] niggardly of the Unseen" to emphasize that the clause meaning is referring to Muhammad's familiarity with the Unseen as revealed by Allah.)

As a prophet, yes, God reveals the unseen to him. But your belief that the prophets have "innate" and "absolute" knowledge is a violation of the teaching of the Quran:

قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعًا مِّنْ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ
Say (O Muhammad!): "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear." (46:9)

Another verse:

Say (O Muhammad!): "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith." (7:188)

Another verse:

They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say (O Muhammad!): "The Unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you." (10:20)

And so, it is only God who has absolute knowledge of the unseen, no one else:

With Him (Allah) are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. (6:59)

As for the blessed ayah which you quoted, it means that whatever Allah reveals of the unseen to the Prophet, he must convey it to us, which means, if the Prophet has knowledge of the unseen, so do we, because it has been conveyed from Allah to the Prophet, who conveyed it to us. That means, according to you, we are all "manifestations of God", not just the prophets!

I am not being dishonest... you are seeking a means to attack and discredit based upon semantics. And what "mystical element...? Why aren't you aware of the allegorical nature of the Qur'an--see Surah 3:7. There it states that there are mystical or esoteric aspects of the Qur'an but that no one should be left to their own personal interpretations as this is God's authority (and His Messenger) alone. Sorry, Yaqub, in the end there is nothing to debunk--as it is all in one's head--and you should probably at least show the same respect of other's faiths as they show to you.

Yes, the Quran does have verses that are mutashabihaat as mentioned in Surah 3:7, which also mentions that we are forbidden to interpret them, as only God knows their true meaning. But as for there being "mystical" elements in the Quran, that is completely untrue.

 

[Cosmos]

Yaqub, you cannot tell someone what they believe in when they are far more educated in the matter than you. There is no God but God! Period. I have amply explained why Baha'u'llah has the power that He does and if you cannot understand or choose not to... I cannot and will not argue with you further on the matter. The Messengers of God possess innate and absolute knowledge of things we do not but that is within the capacity of Their sphere and does not imply the same station as God. Again, the Qur'an only affirms my position, and do not think me unfamiliar with its passages and content as I've read Holy Book as well as any other believer, and so you should truly meditate upon Surah 81:24 in that if it were true that all mortals are equal in knowledge of the Unseen as the Messenger of God--then there is no need for Him or divine revelation as this would be absurd, nor would there have been a split of the Muslim community after the Holy Prophet's death due to the fact that everyone fought over... interpretation. If you believe there is nothing mystical about Islam and yourself are not a mystic, that only means you are the uninitiated and not I. Also, it's ludicrous to say "according to you" when no one claims what you put into their mouths is hypocrisy, like when you say that the Prophets of God must relate what was communicated--why say what I said and say I said something else? Fundamentalist tactics are narrow-minded in the scope of what can be achieved, dear brother, and you should reflect on that. Basic education of Baha'i history is necessary to get a clearer idea of things. Anyone even dimly educated on the life of Baha'u'llah and His writings will observe His humility, supplicant unto God at all times, and utter effacement in the face of even His followers.

 

[Yaqub]

Yaqub, you cannot tell someone what they believe in when they are far more educated in the matter than you.

You love claiming you are more educated than others..so if that is the case, prove it. Whenever someone gives you are argument which you can't answer, you are just going to say "Well I'm more educated than you so I'm right you're wrong!"

Even if you are more educated, that doesn't make you right. None of the prophets of God were university graduates or were "educated" in the modern sense. They came from a simple background, usually shepherds and herders. The Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم whom you claim to believe in did not know how to read or write.

I know the Baha'i religion emphasizes education as the way to salvation, but for us Muslims, the way to salvation is worshipping God and coming close to Him, not by getting a college diploma or becoming a PhD.

There is no God but God! Period. I have amply explained why Baha'u'llah has the power that He does and if you cannot understand or choose not to... I cannot and will not argue with you further on the matter.

Actually you could not answer why Bahaullah claimed to be the "Creator of Existence". The plain fact is that Creator of Existence is the exclusive attribute of God only! Read the Holy Quran, I challenge you to show me where in the Quran anyone other than God is referred to as "Creator of Existence".

The Messengers of God possess innate and absolute knowledge of things we do not but that is within the capacity of Their sphere and does not imply the same station as God. Again, the Qur'an only affirms my position, and do not think me unfamiliar with its passages and content as I've read Holy Book as well as any other believer, and so you should truly meditate upon Surah 81:24 in that if it were true that all mortals are equal in knowledge of the Unseen as the Messenger of God--then there is no need for Him or divine revelation as this would be absurd, nor would there have been a split of the Muslim community after the Holy Prophet's death due to the fact that everyone fought over... interpretation. If you believe there is nothing mystical about Islam and yourself are not a mystic, that only means you are the uninitiated and not I. Also, it's ludicrous to say "according to you" when no one claims what you put into their mouths is hypocrisy, like when you say that the Prophets of God must relate what was communicated--why say what I said and say I said something else?

Surah 81:24 in no way implies the Prophet has "innate" or "absolute" knowledge. Read the verses I posted earlier, only God alone has full knowledge of the unseen, He alone possesses the keys to the unseen, no one knows them but He! Read Surah 6:59, and many other blessed verses from the Quran, which all prove the same thing, Allah reveals the unseen to the Prophets by way of revelation or inspiration (Wahy), none of them possess either "innate" or "absolute" knowledge of the unseen. Even in the Bible it says that Jesus doesn't know when the Hour of Judgment will occur, only God knows. You are trying to elevate the Prophets to a station that they dont possess, and in the process, compromising the Oneness of God.

 

[Cosmos]

You love claiming you are more educated than others..so if that is the case, prove it. Whenever someone gives you are argument which you can't answer, you are just going to say "Well I'm more educated than you so I'm right you're wrong!"

I said in the case of Baha'i theology, yes, I'm not going to argue or compare, but do not be so offended as to think there's some superiority complex.

Even if you are more educated, that doesn't make you right. None of the prophets of God were university graduates or were "educated" in the modern sense. They came from a simple background, usually shepherds and herders. The Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم whom you claim to believe in did not know how to read or write.

This is certainly the truth and is upheld in our tradition, as well. We acknowledge that the Prophets and Messengers of God do not receive an education as men and women need for mental development, and the Bab and Baha'u'llah were in no need of tutors or schools, though Their families tried to engage Them in this activity with no effect. The innate knowledge and wisdom of the Manifestations of God astounds the learned in every age as recorded in all the scriptures.

I know the Baha'i religion emphasizes education as the way to salvation, but for us Muslims, the way to salvation is worshipping God and coming close to Him, not by getting a college diploma or becoming a PhD.

...Wrong. Again, you're merely presuming that because I challenged your actual understanding of Baha'i theology that it is valid to attack my religion in some supercilious manner as redundantly saying something idiotic like we emphasize education as salvation. The role of education is paramount to the Teachings of Baha'u'llah but do not constitute salvation or liberation.

Actually you could not answer why Bahaullah claimed to be the "Creator of Existence". The plain fact is that Creator of Existence is the exclusive attribute of God only! Read the Holy Quran, I challenge you to show me where in the Quran anyone other than God is referred to as "Creator of Existence".

Actually, I did... and anyone can read the thread with an intelligent and open mind and observe that fact. You simply do not agree with me, and that is okay, but it is wrong for you to put words in someone's mouth or to lie. The Creator is the Source of the Effulgence, while the Manifestations of God are the Effulgence Itself, and the realm of creation is the Recipient of the Effulgence. Thing is, Yaqub, I'm not here to challenge you to anything, because my mission is not to make enmity over some religious difference that really does not even truly exist.

Surah 81:24 in no way implies the Prophet has "innate" or "absolute" knowledge. Read the verses I posted earlier, only God alone has full knowledge of the unseen, He alone possesses the keys to the unseen, no one knows them but He! Read Surah 6:59, and many other blessed verses from the Quran, which all prove the same thing, Allah reveals the unseen to the Prophets by way of revelation or inspiration (Wahy), none of them possess either "innate" or "absolute" knowledge of the unseen. Even in the Bible it says that Jesus doesn't know when the Hour of Judgment will occur, only God knows. You are trying to elevate the Prophets to a station that they dont possess, and in the process, compromising the Oneness of God.

Again, thanks for saying what I said but with your particular Islamic brand-name on it, however, I argue that the only way the Holy Prophet can receive knowledge of the Unseen is if He especially was chosen and by His very nature attuned to the Voice of God.

 

[Haris19]

Not to make a point of argument, but to further the topic and emphasize my point that not only do all Muslims not agree upon the authenticity of the various Hadiths (or Narrations), but interpretations and understanding of the Qur'an, as well. For example, brother Haris suggests that the Prophet Muhammad is no different from any other Prophet of God, and I'd like to correct that as Muhammad states otherwise in revelation Himself. We read:




Here it is explained that every Prophet and Messenger comes with different missions, ordinances, prescriptions, personalities, fulfillment, etc., that it becomes a source of derision within the community of believers. Notice how every Great Prophet is mentioned with different attributes in this verse, as elsewhere in other segments of the Qur'an. In fact, in other translations (this being Yusuf Ali) you will find that it uses the phrase "some excelling others".

Brother,what we need to understand from the verse is that GOD alone reserves the right to give ranks or positions to his messengers.As far as believers are concerned,they are NOT to make any distinction amoung the messengers of GOD. Prophet Muhammad was a human being who was no different from the messengers before him.You will not find a single verse in the Quran which tells Muslims to give Muhammad a higher rank above other messengers of GOD but many verses can be seen which clearly tells Muslims NOT to make ANY distinction amoung the messengers of GOD.

Peace!

 

[Cosmos]

Brother,what we need to understand from the verse is that GOD alone reserves the right to give ranks or positions to his messengers.As far as believers are concerned,they are NOT to make any distinction amoung the messengers of GOD. Prophet Muhammad was a human being who was no different from the messengers before him.You will not find a single verse in the Quran which tells Muslims to give Muhammad a higher rank above other messengers of GOD but many verses can be seen which clearly tells Muslims NOT to make ANY distinction amoung the messengers of GOD.

Peace!

The essential unity of the Prophets of God is upheld in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[gnostic]

I want to bring the topic about the question of idolising the prophet, specifically Muhammad.

Whether Muhammad is being ask or being told to be elevated (above all prophets) in the Qur'an or the Hadiths, or whether Muhammad seek such vainglory himself, is really not the actual topic of this thread.

It (in this thread) is all about the attitudes of each Muslim see Muhammad.

• Do they (Muslims) adore the Muhammad to the point of idolising him? (hence "hero-worshipping" the prophet)
• Do they hold Muhammad (or even just his "name") as being "sacred"? (The teddy bear-naming incidence is an example.)
• Will they attack anyone (non-Muslims) who don't respect Muhammad? (eg. the death threats against the Danish cartoonist.)

In the last 2 questions, some Muslims were treating name as being so "holy" that they consider the alleged misuse of Muhammad's name or visual representation of the prophet to be blasphemy.

Usually blasphemy is the "contempt or lack of reverence/respect to God" (or gods). By saying that these people have committed blasphemy against Muhammad, is sort of like treating the prophet as being god.

There is a great irony here. The Muslims say they don't worship him, but apparently they do, when they treat Muhammad so sacred that he has god-like attribute bestowed on him, perhaps unwittingly. By using blasphemy as charges against the people, they have inadvertently treated their prophet as a god, or god-like, the very taboo that they themselves have tried to prevent. Hence the irony

Another example is that there has a number of Muslims here, as well as the islam dot com forum (which I used to be member of), where they see the passages in John 14:15-31, 15:26-27, 16:5-16, where it talk about the "Comforter" or "Counsellor", and the "Spirit of Truth" (see Connections between Deuteronomy, John, and the Quran...., Mohammed in the Bible.) To the Christians, these titles referred to the "Holy Spirit". It is quite clear in John's that Jesus will send this Holy Spirit to his disciples when he die, in order to guide them (his apostles and disciples).

The Holy Spirit, according to my understanding of Christian doctrine is that the Holy Spirit is God, or more precisely one of the aspects or manifestations of God that deal with people's prayers and God in the form of the Holy Spirit. If one was to combine the Christian ideology with the Islamic ideology together, then Muslims are essentially saying that Muhammad is a god.

So this topic is about how Muslims say, view or treat Muhammad, and not about what the Qur'an (or the hadiths) say or don't say about their last prophet.

 

[Snowber]

This is quote is actually from Discussion topic - Depictions of the prophet. Since debate is not allow, and debates are about to happen, I thought it would best to start a new topic here.



I think Muhammad is already idolized, whether there is image or not. You don't need an image to idolize a person.

Depiction is more than just a picture. Depiction can also mean "describing" or "description".

That any Muslim considered that there is a law against a teacher letting child to use the name Muhammad (or any other variations of spelling) a stuff toy and charge them with blasphemy, these are basically idolising the prophet.

When some Muslims want to kill Danish cartoonist for some drawing, killing in the prophet's name is also be consider idolising the prophet.

Every time you pray and use his name (Muhammad) as a mantra is basically making him god-like, and hence as idol.

Why do Muhammad's name need to be mentioned at all, in a prayer?

And I don't remember if this is the Qur'an or Hadith, but there is description of Muhammad that describe him as being like "handsome" or "very good-looking" or "manly".

Such description, can only be describe as hero-worshipping.

Peace be upon you Gnostic,

You are correct in saying that many Muslims idolize the prophet Muhammad today. Sadly, they don't realize it.

Idol worship is not simply bowing down to a statue, it could be loving your wife,car,money,job,children, or anything else too much (more than GOD, specifically).

[6:22] On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?"
[6:23] Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."*

On the Day of Ressurection people even respond that they were not idol worshippers. They were completely lost.



How do we know many Muslims today idolize the prophet Muhammad? The Qu'ran tells us so. They make a distinction that Muhammad is better than any prophets but GOD tells us we cannot do that with ANY prophets or messengers.

[2:136]
Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no DISTINCTION among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[2:285]
The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no DISTINCTION among any of His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey.* Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."

[3:84]
Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and in what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no DISTINCTION among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[4:150]
Those who disbelieve in GOD and His messengers, and seek to make DISTINCTION among GOD and His messengers, and say, "We believe in some and reject some," and wish to follow a path in between;
[4:151] these are the real disbelievers. We have prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution.


[4:152]
As for those who believe in GOD and His messengers, and make no DISTINCTION among them, He will grant them their recompense. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Unfortunately the answer is yes here. As much as I would wish that it wasn't the case. Even the prophet Muhammad himself mentions this:

[25:30]
The messenger* said, "My Lord, my people have DESERTED this Quran."

Hope this helps.

 

[gnostic]

Peace be upon you Gnostic,

And to you.

You are correct in saying that many Muslims idolize the prophet Muhammad today. Sadly, they don't realize it.

Idol worship is not simply bowing down to a statue, it could be loving your wife,car,money,job,children, or anything else too much (more than GOD, specifically).

Yes, I see that you understand what I am saying.

Idol don't have to be an object. It can be a person.

And you don't even have to "bow" or "pray", to idol worship someone. Another name for idol worship is "hero-worship". It is matter of personal "devotion" that a person shown to Muhammad. They act sort of like fans of singer or film star.

Every now and then, I see Muslims claiming to be better than other prophets, saying that Muhammad is the best or use the word "most" with an adjective, eg "most precious", "most perfect", etc.

The perfect example of idol worshipping is the English school teacher, Gillian Gibbons, and the teddy bear incidence in Sudan.

The school, the Islamic clerics, the police, the court and government had prosecute her for blasphemy. Not only did they charge her with allowing the children to name their stuff toys. The problem is that many boys and men were given name "Muhammad" and all variation of spellings of such names, at birth or when they convert to Islam. The boy who named the teddy-bear also has the name, Muhammad, and the boy did claim to name after himself and not after the prophet, but rather than punish the boy (who did no wrong), the school, the Islamic clerics, the police, the court and government need a scapegoat.

I don't know if anyone heard about it, but thousands of people, including the imam wanting her dead, some of them actually waving swords and machetes. If they don't idol-worship Muhammad then what is that?

The irony is that by charging Ms Gibbons with blasphemy, it can be view that the Sudanese view the prophet Muhammad to be "god-like", because you would normally use "blasphemy charge" if you refer to god or deities inappropriately, not to a person. The Sudaneses have unwittingly put Muhammad in the same pedestal as Allah.

There is a fine line between devotion and idol worship, and clearly the Sudanese authorities, Islamic officials and average worshippers had cross that line.