Response: The hadith is not authentic. Thus your claim has no validity.
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Idolising prophet or not
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
Response: The hadith is not authentic. Thus your claim has no validity.
gnostic
The Lost One
fatihah said:
The Qur'an is not authentic. So your claim has no validity.
If you choose to play such game with me, I can just as easily discount your entire Qur'an as being as baseless as all the books in the bible.
Can you prove that Muhammad got the Qur'an from God, directly, and not from Satan?
Can you prove that angel, like Gabriel had visited Muhammad?
Can you prove that some of things with the Qur'an are not pure 3 Fs? (3Fs - fable, fairytale or folklore. eg, Solomon commanding the winds, speak, understand and command ants and birds.)
Or of that Islamic tradition that Muhammad actually travelling to Jerusalem on a winged horse from Mecca to visit a Temple of Solomon that doesn't exist in Muhammad's time?
Response: We've been down this road before. I can prove them all. If you still insist for such proofs, again, then I suggest you create a thread for the topic, and I'll address you there, rather than asking me this on every single thread.
gnostic
The Lost One
I thought I post a few things about the questions that I've ask in post 42. Don't know or remember if they were actual topics.
In any case, perhaps I will start on such new topics about them, after I've completed my exams and assignments after June....in fact, I should get back to my assignments.
In any case, perhaps I will start on such new topics about them, after I've completed my exams and assignments after June....in fact, I should get back to my assignments.
Cosmos
Member
Note: No two sects of Islam can agree on what is and what is not an "authentic Hadith", so the very claim by anyone who is not officially a scholar (Fatihah is not one) that certain narrations should not be considered is not only prejudicial but ignorant. Not to mention Hadiths from the official canon recognized by all sects still further narrates the Prophet Muhammad's allusions of divinity--for example, where the Prophet Muhammad in Bukhari (or Sahih) puts Himself in the same Station of Christ by asserting He will remiss sins at the Hour of Judgement, which directly mirrors the same essential message I posted in the former narrations.
Fatihah... you're simply a bigot who like the fundamentalist Christians you probably have deep-rooted resentment towards who will attack and malign any religion or culture foreign or opposed to them.
Fatihah... you're simply a bigot who like the fundamentalist Christians you probably have deep-rooted resentment towards who will attack and malign any religion or culture foreign or opposed to them.
Peace!
In the Quran,the verses are very clear.All those hadiths which declare Muhammad to be having a status above other messengers are simply false.Its high time that the Muslims recognize the falsehood in these man made books and discard them.Any one who disobeys GOD and makes distinction amoung the messengers are simply not Muslims but idol worshippers.
[46:9] Say, "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner."
[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
[27:59] Say, "Praise be to GOD and peace be upon His servants whom He chose. Is GOD better, or the idols some people set up?"
Peace!
In the Quran,the verses are very clear.All those hadiths which declare Muhammad to be having a status above other messengers are simply false.Its high time that the Muslims recognize the falsehood in these man made books and discard them.Any one who disobeys GOD and makes distinction amoung the messengers are simply not Muslims but idol worshippers.
[46:9] Say, "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner."
[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
[27:59] Say, "Praise be to GOD and peace be upon His servants whom He chose. Is GOD better, or the idols some people set up?"
Peace!
Cosmos
Member
Not to make a point of argument, but to further the topic and emphasize my point that not only do all Muslims not agree upon the authenticity of the various Hadiths (or Narrations), but interpretations and understanding of the Qur'an, as well. For example, brother Haris suggests that the Prophet Muhammad is no different from any other Prophet of God, and I'd like to correct that as Muhammad states otherwise in revelation Himself. We read:
Here it is explained that every Prophet and Messenger comes with different missions, ordinances, prescriptions, personalities, fulfillment, etc., that it becomes a source of derision within the community of believers. Notice how every Great Prophet is mentioned with different attributes in this verse, as elsewhere in other segments of the Qur'an. In fact, in other translations (this being Yusuf Ali) you will find that it uses the phrase "some excelling others".
Here it is explained that every Prophet and Messenger comes with different missions, ordinances, prescriptions, personalities, fulfillment, etc., that it becomes a source of derision within the community of believers. Notice how every Great Prophet is mentioned with different attributes in this verse, as elsewhere in other segments of the Qur'an. In fact, in other translations (this being Yusuf Ali) you will find that it uses the phrase "some excelling others".
Response: Authenticity is not based on whether two sects agree, so your claim is absurd to begin with. And to say that only a scholar can judge on what hadiths should be considered and yet you consider some hadiths over others and is not a scholar is a clear statement of hypocrisy. Surely you've just demonstrated that your claim of a bigot is to the contrary.
Cosmos
Member
...Either you're an ignorant practicing Muslim or a liar.
Are you familiar with your fiqh? If not I suggest you learn the historical Sunni approach to the Hadiths as it is the source of all jurisprudence. If you ARE... then clearly you're over your head in assuming what I supposedly presume. This is the same issue that divided the disciples of Christ and caused the original schisms in the early Christian churches. Go ask your imam at your local mosque what he as an experienced and respected believer thinks upon matters of interpretation in Hadith and then come back to me with a better perspective.
:biglaugh:
Are you familiar with your fiqh? If not I suggest you learn the historical Sunni approach to the Hadiths as it is the source of all jurisprudence. If you ARE... then clearly you're over your head in assuming what I supposedly presume. This is the same issue that divided the disciples of Christ and caused the original schisms in the early Christian churches. Go ask your imam at your local mosque what he as an experienced and respected believer thinks upon matters of interpretation in Hadith and then come back to me with a better perspective. :biglaugh:
...Either you're an ignorant practicing Muslim or a liar.
:biglaugh:
Response: How amusing. A person is questioning whether I know fiqh while claiming Muhammad is divine. It's like watching a person challenge a mathematician on multiplication while claiming 2+2 is 912.
Cosmos
Member
...No, Fatihah, it's like watching you dodge and slide the issue. I was (and still am in spirit) a Muslim, so don't fudge around with me and act like your religious affiliation makes you more knowledgeable, when it doesn't. The Divinity of the Prophet Muhammad is exactly of the same station and degree as the Divinity of Jesus Christ as they are both exemplary of the Perfect Man which no ordinary beings can attain but is destined for ethereal Beings, such as the Manifestations of God Who are borne in this world to guide mankind. That is not to say They are deified! It is a recognition that though manifest in the human reality the truth is that They are at-one with Divine Mind as the Logos (Word of God) and proceed from that One Essence, which is transcendent of our conceptions of Them. The reason why Muslims in contemporary times and since the days of the Holy Prophet do not ascribe divinity directly to Muhammad is because of the intention of avoiding the same pitfalls that have beesmirked Christianity in the five centuries since its birth and the fact early Islam most resembled the early Christian sects that focused more on the humanity of Christ rather than His divine nature or attributes. Our challenge as Baha'is is to aide Muslims in acknowledging within the Qur'an and Hadiths allusions that conclusively lend an understanding of the exalted and sanctified Station of the Prophet Muhammad as an unmatchable and unparalleled Soul in the kingdom of Creation. Baha'is believe that God is essentially unknowable and nothing can be truly likened unto the Creator but that His Manifestations are Souls mirroring forth the perfection of His Qualities and Attributes as the rays of the sun manifested in a polished or perfected mirror, and this meaning each Messenger of God is also the Holy Spirit (i.e. Logos or Word) incarnate--and not God. From a theological point of view, as a Baha'i the historical split between the understanding of the historic personas known as Jesus the Nazerene and Muhammad the Arabian reflects the overall dual reality and nature within each Messenger of God as They possess both a human and divine nature, sometimes emphasizing one over the other during certain ages.
Yaqub
Member
You may not realize how you contradicted yourself in the exact same sentence. You affirmed, and we Muslims also believe, that nothing can be likened to God, meaning, nothing is similar to Him, nothing resembles Him, and vice versa, He does not resemble anything. He is totally unique.
But in the exact same sentence you go on to compare God to the sun, thus, making resemblance between God and one of His creations. You say that souls are reflecting the qualities and attributes of God, similar to how a ray emanates from the sun.
The fact that you believe the soul is a mirror of God's qualities and attributes is itself a pagan idea, and has no relation to true monotheism. God's Attributes belong exclusively to Him, none shares with them or "reflects" them. The human soul is subject to life and death, but God is eternal, having no beginning or ending. As mortals, we require sustainance and have innumerable limitations - but God does not. A prophet is merely a human being who receives divine revelation and communication from God. a prophet is not some kind of "manifestation of God". the Holy Quran says:
قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَاسْتَقِيمُوا إِلَيْهِ وَاسْتَغْفِرُوهُ وَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُشْرِكِينَ
Say (O Muhammad!): "I am only a human being like you. It is inspired in me that your God is One God, therefore take the Straight Path to Him, and seek forgiveness of Him. And woe to the idolaters. (41:6)
Response: Yet there is nothing in the qur'an or sunnah which supports your claims, making your argument more nonsensical with every word being stated.
Cosmos
Member
When we use this terminology in our theology it is to be only understood as an metaphor and nothing more. The fact that you read more into it is merely semantic and only shows that you need to study the Baha'i teachings more. What I said specifically, actually, was that the Manifestation of God is likened unto the rays of the sun which are OF its essence and yet not actually that or the source. When you get more intricately learned in Baha'i theology one learns that in respect to the fact that God is unknowable the Messenger of God is the Sun of Truth in relationship to us as they are the only way of communing or knowing anything humanly possible at all of the Divine Mind.
...Actually, Yaqub, it is a Jewish belief and originates from Genesis. They're also monotheists. Here is a paradox for you, my brother: If Allah Most High is exalted beyond all human comprehension--what then are His Qualities and Attributes but mental conceptions in the minds of human beings? You see? His domain and realm is His and His alone, and there are not associates or partners with Him, and yet we can perceive the Qualities and Attributes of God! The reason for this, Yaqub, is because they exist as the Signs of God as an emanation in the realm of Jabarut (i.e. Kingdom of God or realm of the Holy Spirit) where the bridge between God's creation and His eternality are bridged. We understand that each Messenger of God IS the Holy Spirit, as even the Prophet Muhammad Himself was referred in this station in the Gospels when prophecising His advent! And no one is certainly arguing whether the Prophet Muhammad was a human being or not, however, I shall share with you that Baha'is believe that though They [Messengers of God] share a human reality, Their true origin is in the Worlds of God.
Yaqub
Member
I know it's a metaphor, but the point is you are making an analogy for God. You are saying that just like the rays emanate from the sun, and have the exact same ESSENCE as the sun, therefore, the Prophets of God emanate from God and share His ESSENCE. this is nothing but idolatry!
No one has the essence of God. I realize that you are making a distinction between God Himself and the Prophets, who are separate from Him, but the fact that you said that the Prophets share God's essence is still a form of idolatry.
Islamic terminology is much more precise and simple to understand. According to our religion, Prophets are not "manifestations of God", but rather a proof that God exists, they are "signs of God". In fact, not just prophets, everything you see, the sun, the moon, the stars, the clouds, the trees, the mountains, the ocean, all of these are created by God and pointing to His existence. In this sense, yes, the Prophets too are manifesting the existence of God.
However, what you are saying is different, that the Prophets have the same essence as God just like a ray has the same essence as the sun, whereas we reject such a belief as blasphemy.
Allah's Essence is exalted beyond comprehension, but His Attributes are knowable. His attributes being, for example, His Mercy, His Love, His Power, His Greatness, His Knowledge, His Speech, these are things we know and can directly experience, but God's Essence is unknowable.
And here again I beg to differ, Prophets are just like any human being, there's is nothing special about their makeup. They eat, sleep, breathe, drink, live and die like anyone else. They have the same origin as all humanity, all humanity was created through Adam, the first man, whom God fashioned with His own Two Hands out of the dust. This is the origin of mankind, I don't know what you mean when you say "their true origin is in the Worlds of God."?!
Cosmos
Member
Friend, Baha'i theology derives from Islamic theology.
Again, we do not use pantheistic or polytheistic theologies as it is evident this originates from Jewish religion. Furthermore, you do not understand that what is being expressed is a metaphor, for this statement is itself oxymoronic and semantic, as you would not need to argue with me or prove an opposing point to something we all agree to begin with is not literal.:foot: I am sure you consider yourself knowledgeable of the exact details of our philosophy, but I assure you... you are not. No Baha'i, including our Prophet-Founder, has ever claimed that the Prophets of God ARE God! To make a point as to how Muslims misunderstand their own theology and terminologies, you still have not even considered, let alone answered, my question as to what about the nature concerning the Qualities and Attributes of God. To say something shares or mirrors forth the Essence of God is not the same as to say it is the Source Itself, as the emanation of the Kingdom of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit) is a part of God but not He. Your description of the prophets are really exactly as I described them and the differences are only in your head, my brother. No one has argued whether the Prophets of God eat, drink, sleep, go potty, and die as all men.
Reading the mystical elements of the Qur'an are superior to the literal rendering. You say Allah made Adam the First Prophet (i.e. First Man) Who represents mankind out of dust but negate to enlighten the full dynamics of life by leaving out that Man was not complete until the Spirit (Ruh) of Allah was put into Him! SAME AS GENESIS! Describing what I described to you in different words does not truly make it any difference, but this is delusion of the mind, brother Yaqub, such as God being evident through the kingdom of Creation and the cycles of Nature when I could have told you that or that a Messenger of God is evidence (i.e. Sign) that God exists (I did tell you exactly that). You said: "In this sense, yes, the Prophets too are manifesting the existence of God."
We are in fact in agreement if you will but perceive. To achieve true wisdom we must abandon prejudices and age old dogmas.
Yaqub
Member
Dear Cosmos, aside from this nice discussion we are having here, I would like to invite you to participate in a new thread I opened to discuss the claim of Bahaullah to be the promised Messiah here
In Kitab i Aqdas, p.43, Bahaullah says: "There is no God but I, the Honoured, the Wise"
In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, Bahaullah writes "All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence"
And this is just scratching the surface my dear, like this, there are loads of references from your books where Bahaullah is set up to be God Himself!
Actually I did answer this question in my previous post. In summary, I mentioned that there is a distinction between God's Essence or God Himself and God's Attributes. God's Essence is incomprehensible and cannot be imagined, but God's Attributes are knowable and can be experienced, such as His Mercy, His Love, His Power, His Speech, etc.
"The Manifestations of God possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are superior to others that do not have that capacity. Thus, the Manifestations of God are seen as special beings, and having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life. They are also seen to have innate, divinely revealed knowledge and absolute knowledge of the physical world"
This is contrary to the Holy Quran, which repeatedly emphasizes that the Prophet does not possess knowledge of the unseen, he does not know the future, he only knows that which God reveals to him. However, according to Baha'ism, the prophets have INNATE and ABSOLUTE knowledge of the physical world, whereas, in Islam, only God alone knows the unseen and has absolute knowledge of everything.
Are you sure about that?
In Kitab i Aqdas, p.43, Bahaullah says: "There is no God but I, the Honoured, the Wise"
In his Al-Mubeen, page 34, Bahaullah writes "All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence"
And this is just scratching the surface my dear, like this, there are loads of references from your books where Bahaullah is set up to be God Himself!
Actually I did answer this question in my previous post. In summary, I mentioned that there is a distinction between God's Essence or God Himself and God's Attributes. God's Essence is incomprehensible and cannot be imagined, but God's Attributes are knowable and can be experienced, such as His Mercy, His Love, His Power, His Speech, etc.
The difference between Islam and Baha'ism is that the latter says that a mortal cannot reflect God's Attributes in himself, but you believe otherwise. You believe the Prophets are the mirror image of God, whereas we believe that God has no mirror image, He is Al-Quddus (the Holy One)
What are the so called "mystical" elements of the Quran? And on what basis do you say that reading a mystical interpretation is superior to reading a literal interpretation. The Quran is the plain and clear Book of God, it does not have a "mystical element".
You are simply being dishonest about your own beliefs. According to Baha'ism:such as God being evident through the kingdom of Creation and the cycles of Nature when I could have told you that or that a Messenger of God is evidence (i.e. Sign) that God exists (I did tell you exactly that). You said: "In this sense, yes, the Prophets too are manifesting the existence of God."
"The Manifestations of God possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are superior to others that do not have that capacity. Thus, the Manifestations of God are seen as special beings, and having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life. They are also seen to have innate, divinely revealed knowledge and absolute knowledge of the physical world"
This is contrary to the Holy Quran, which repeatedly emphasizes that the Prophet does not possess knowledge of the unseen, he does not know the future, he only knows that which God reveals to him. However, according to Baha'ism, the prophets have INNATE and ABSOLUTE knowledge of the physical world, whereas, in Islam, only God alone knows the unseen and has absolute knowledge of everything.
Cosmos
Member
...Okay, as it is too late to continue further tonight... allow me to correct you one last time... and thank you for quoting some of the Sacred Writings for me. Yes, I have read the Kitab-i-Aqdas, and usages such as "There is no God but I, the Honoured, the Wise" is God directly speaking. For example, when God speaks through Muhammad directly--is the Holy Prophet God Himself? ...Well, no, not literally! This is something Muslims, too, have to explain to people, so the fact you're having a hard time understanding is difficult to comprehend. The fundamental point is that Baha'u'llah has attributes such as "Creator of existence" because He IS the Holy Spirit--as I have exhaustively spoken on--which is the active and creative Force or Divine Energy in the realm of creation! So, too, did the Blessed Beauty [Muhammad] (may all life be a sacrifice unto Him) create a new universe through the Will and Power of God through the inspiring words of His Revelation! And to correct you... no mortal can reflect in perfection the Qualities and Attributes of God, which is why the Manifestations of God are borne in the Realms of Holiness (i.e. Worlds of God).
What you do not understand is that Baha'u'llah did not set Himself up as God--do not be mistaken as I am well enough read in my own scriptures--but elucidates the Station of a Divine Manifestation of God by stating that when revelatory experiences come through the Gems of Holiness (i.e. divine Personages), They are not any 'person' and are devoid absolutely of 'self' so that only God is communicating. When the Great Being speaks--there is no 'Baha'u'llah' or 'Jesus' or 'Muhammad'. Further, if you really believe that Muhammad never claimed to have knowledge of the Ghaib (Unseen)... then you are poorly learned in your Salafi studies. Check the Qur'an again!
We read:
I am not being dishonest... you are seeking a means to attack and discredit based upon semantics. And what "mystical element...? Why aren't you aware of the allegorical nature of the Qur'an--see Surah 3:7. There it states that there are mystical or esoteric aspects of the Qur'an but that no one should be left to their own personal interpretations as this is God's authority (and His Messenger) alone. Sorry, Yaqub, in the end there is nothing to debunk--as it is all in one's head--and you should probably at least show the same respect of other's faiths as they show to you.
What you do not understand is that Baha'u'llah did not set Himself up as God--do not be mistaken as I am well enough read in my own scriptures--but elucidates the Station of a Divine Manifestation of God by stating that when revelatory experiences come through the Gems of Holiness (i.e. divine Personages), They are not any 'person' and are devoid absolutely of 'self' so that only God is communicating. When the Great Being speaks--there is no 'Baha'u'llah' or 'Jesus' or 'Muhammad'. Further, if you really believe that Muhammad never claimed to have knowledge of the Ghaib (Unseen)... then you are poorly learned in your Salafi studies. Check the Qur'an again!
We read:
(Note some translations are more concise in translating the Arabic conveyance as "Neither" or "Nor is he [Muhammad] niggardly of the Unseen" to emphasize that the clause meaning is referring to Muhammad's familiarity with the Unseen as revealed by Allah.)
I am not being dishonest... you are seeking a means to attack and discredit based upon semantics. And what "mystical element...? Why aren't you aware of the allegorical nature of the Qur'an--see Surah 3:7. There it states that there are mystical or esoteric aspects of the Qur'an but that no one should be left to their own personal interpretations as this is God's authority (and His Messenger) alone. Sorry, Yaqub, in the end there is nothing to debunk--as it is all in one's head--and you should probably at least show the same respect of other's faiths as they show to you.
Tanuki
Taking a hiatus
Friend, Baha'i theology derives from Islamic theology.
No one has argued whether the Prophets of God eat, drink, sleep, go potty, and die as all men.
Sorry Cosmos, but Baha'i theology doesn't emanate from islamic theology - it is so way off the mark that it's shirk plain and simple.
Baha'i theology grew out of the Sheiky movement and they added innovation to Shia theology. Dress it up all you want but the Baha'i faith is a deviation from Islam and nothing more.
Check out:
The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam
This wasn't what I based my assessment on , but it confirmed what I knew and found out through research.
Ps Cosmos, your arrogance is astounding. As with many a Baha'i you feel you have all the answers which unfortunately you don't. Perhaps one day you will wake up to reality and revert, until then I'll keep you in my prayers.
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Cosmos
Member
...I've read "Baha'i Awareness" in-depth, so that is a useless way to counteract the truth.
In any case... no matter who you are--Muslim or Christian, or otherwise--or what you say, you cannot make something not what it IS. Any half-educated person in the Baha'i Faith knows that our theology derives its root from Islamic theology, and only the two of you with your Sunni fundamentalism makes you believe differently. I wonder whose arrogance is greater: The person (you two) attempting to forcibly convert and argue with others or the one who openly loves all, sharing information for the sake of education? So sorry that your prejudice towards Shi'ites causes you consternation and anger, as the Muslim world today has no clue or wishes to know that they've followed a corrupt warrior state for nearly 1,400 years.
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