If abortion were illegal

[Ormiston]

Just remember, pro-choice advocates don't consider an unborn child to be alive, and so they don't consider abortion to be putting someone to death. The sad thing is how hard it is for people to come to an agreement on things, like when life begins.

I don't think it's sad. I think it is healthy. This is an incredibly difficult question to answer in the first place. Either it begins immediately or at some point later on during the pregnancy. I'm sure you could find every possible answer to this question repeated numerous times if you asked everyone. Fortunately, we live in a society where different views are allowed.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Women are going to have abortions, legal or not, and therefore it becomes a health issue; not a moral one. We need legal abortion, morals can decide where the line is drawn.

 

[Quiddity]

morals can decide where the line is drawn.

My point is that the line should not be drawn. Especially when we don't know the answer.

~Victor

 

[Ormiston]

My point is that the line should not be drawn. Especially when we don't know the answer.

~Victor

The answer is ours to decide. I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Quiddity]

The answer is ours to decide. I'm not sure I understand.

The answer is that it's NOT ours to decide. That's my point.

~Victor

 

[Ormiston]

The answer is that it's NOT ours to decide. That's my point.

~Victor

Who decides then Victor? God. And when are we going to get the answer? The simple fact is we do get to decide (whether it is right or wrong). Abortion is legal and so the decision has been made (I know it can change too).

 

[jonny]

Just remember, pro-choice advocates don't consider an unborn child to be alive, and so they don't consider abortion to be putting someone to death. The sad thing is how hard it is for people to come to an agreement on things, like when life begins.

I know they don't. I do. My religious beliefs are that its spirit was alive even before conception. That's why I have such a hard time with abortion.

 

[Quiddity]

Who decides then Victor? God. And when are we going to get the answer? The simple fact is we do get to decide (whether it is right or wrong). Abortion is legal and so the decision has been made (I know it can change too).

Choice is deffinately there. I'm only sharing with you that from a catholic perspective we can't make that call.

~Victor

 

[Ormiston]

Choice is deffinately there. I'm only sharing with you that from a catholic perspective we can't make that call.

~Victor

Fair enough. I'm only saying that we can't afford not to.

Anyways, I've got to run for the evening. I just wanted to say I've enjoyed talking to everyone tonight. Good night!

 

[Quoth The Raven]

As I said, I don't wish for either.

~Victor

I don't think anyone wishes for either.

 

[Steve]

Can we all agree that it would be socially irresponsible to ban abortions without a workable plan to deal with the population growth that would result? Or is there still some question over this?

Murder is Murder, it is not a solution. It should not be a womans right to murder an innocent baby.
Even if we banned abortion without any idea at all about what to do next it would still be better then murdering 125,000 humans a year.
Foster care and adoption could be encoraged and supported nationally with all the money thats currently spent on abortion procedures etc.

 

[Pah]

Murder is Murder, it is not a solution. It should not be a womans right to murder an innocent baby.

Apparently murder is not always murder and that is easliy seen in the genocide and infanticide of living human beings of the Old Testament.

But it is a right of a living woman to control her body over the right of a possibly living, possibily healthy, possibly loved being. It is secular law and as a Christian you are bound to obey what is Ceasar's. It is not God's kingdom on earth. Let God and not yourself be the judge of what takes place on earth. You are also commanded to cast a stone only if you are without sin. Feeling sinless today? and tomorrow? Think you may judge in God's stead? Think you should disobey Jesus?

There is so much you choose to ignore, isn't there!

Even if we banned abortion without any idea at all about what to do next it would still be better then murdering 125,000 humans a year.

Ah yes, the life of misery is prefered to no life. Is that the "potential" you see for every unwanted feuts?

Foster care and adoption could be encoraged and supported nationally with all the money thats currently spent on abortion procedures etc.

Since that is largely private money just how do you think you would go about that?

 

[Steve]

Apparently murder is not always murder and that is easliy seen in the genocide and infanticide of living human beings of the Old Testament.

But it is a right of a living woman to control her body over the right of a possibly living, possibily healthy, possibly loved being. It is secular law and as a Christian you are bound to obey what is Ceasar's. It is not God's kingdom on earth. Let God and not yourself be the judge of what takes place on earth. You are also commanded to cast a stone only if you are without sin. Feeling sinless today? and tomorrow? Think you may judge in God's stead? Think you should disobey Jesus?

There is so much you choose to ignore, isn't there!

Maybe you need to "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24

Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy." Prov. 31:9
​

Id say a helpless baby needs its rights defended, it cant defend itself.
The bible dosnt expect us to accept every thing going on around us, however it condemns hypocritical judgement eg

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Matthew 7:3-5
​

There is so much you choose to ignore, isn't there!

Not sure where you are going with your comments about the law, the law is suppose to protect our rights. The law as it stands now does not protect the rights of the child.

Ah yes, the life of misery is prefered to no life. Is that the "potential" you see for every unwanted feuts?Since that is largely private money just how do you think you would go about that?

It at least gives life a chance, whats to say that life will be just misery anyhow?
Is it right to kill someone just because they are miserable or may be, No.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Than we are in congruence on the theory that there is no alternative to abortion at this time. However you as a rep of the abortion ban group wants to ban it anyway.

Hey Rob,

You have given this a lot of thought and your question has hit me by surprise. I really haven't seen the possibility of Roe being overturned as yet but the consequences would be overwhelming. What it made me think of though is the other argument against bigger government. Conservatives are supposed to be against this but overturning Roe would bring on a much larger involvement by the government. I think it would take me some time to come up with these possible solutions you are asking for, meaning that this is so complicated that it would be quite some time to even be able identify all of the problems that would need solving.

One solution I do see is to restrict the more undesirable aspects of allowing abortions at any stage. A compromise like this would balance it somewhat and not create more problems than we already have.


Craig

 

[jamaesi]

The answer is that it's NOT ours to decide. That's my point.

That's right. It's the woman's point to decide.

 

[Pah]

[/color]
Maybe you need to "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24

Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy." Prov. 31:9
​

Id say a helpless baby needs its rights defended, it cant defend itself.

I do too but there is no way a fetus is a child. and it fact the Bible states that it requires God's Breath. Now you quoted some verse to me, a non-believer, that I'm going to ingnore just as you, a believer I assume, ignored mine. Do you see the irony in that? It really illustrates quite well your "cherry-picking" of Biblical verse.

The bible dosnt expect us to accept every thing going on around us, however it condemns hypocritical judgement eg

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Matthew 7:3-5​

Cherry-picking is not hypocritical?
​

There is so much you choose to ignore, isn't there!

Of course I can ignore it - for so many reasons. The question is whether a professed believer can ignore it.

Not sure where you are going with your comments about the law, the law is suppose to protect our rights. The law as it stands now does not protect the rights of the child.

Exactly! It has said there are no rights of the fetus at all. The contention in Roe v Wade is between a woman and the state. That case speaks to the rights of a woman and the limitations of state power to curtail her rights. I believe you're from Austrailia and I wouldn't expect you, or many Americans for that matter, to care about the disctinction here. The bottom line is that the state can only recognize and protect rights of American citizens and somewhat limited when dealing with citizens of other nations. The fetus does not become a citizen until birth. and then, both legally and scientifically, the fetus becomes a child. That you choose to bastardize the word "child" is a problem rooted in your morailty - not mine and not the morality incorporated into American law.

It at least gives life a chance, whats to say that life will be just misery anyhow?
Is it right to kill someone just because they are miserable or may be, No.

You are taking a potentiality of the fetus becoming a child and citizen. What justificstion do have to deny the potentiality I see in favor of your own. And how, just how is law to determine which potentiality is correct before the fact. It's absurd to think you or the law can. Potentionality is a non-starter in this social debate.

Traditionally, many Protestants do not hold to the sacredness of sperm or ova. What moral right do you have to disregard the potentiality of those elements of life. And even those that do respect ova and sperm do not understand that the grandmother to the potential child has a huge "say" in the biological establishment of a grandchild. They make no extension in that direction.

 

[robtex]

Hey Rob,
You have given this a lot of thought and your question has hit me by surprise. I think it would take me some time to come up with these possible solutions you are asking for, meaning that this is so complicated that it would be quite some time to even be able identify all of the problems that would need solving.
Craig

Craig the fact alone that you are pondering it and looking at all the possiblities instead of qouting from the bible and talking about God has garnered considerable respect from me and I suspect other non-theists on this board. I threw the God/apathy post a few posts back specifically because I had a sneaking suspicison that was the real reason but nobody would articulate it. But really I am overwhelmed that a Christian can look at it from a secular viewpoint and factor in the math to the evaluations they make.

Irregardless of what your final decision is the fact that you are pondering it and analyzing it instead of hiding scripture and canon gives me a sense of inner satisfaction.

 

[Quiddity]

That's right. It's the woman's point to decide.

I guess some prefer their choice over and above a possible life. Not me... I would rather give life to someone, and give up my choice for just one time. But yet some will do this in a second if it means national security. Interesting and frieghtening at the same time....

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Robtex, I have asked you three times to answer a question and still haven't seen anything. You have gotten your inner satisfaction and am seeing this thread no more then your own agenda without really caring about a solution. I'm done with this thread.

~Victor

 

[robtex]

Robtex, I have asked you three times to answer a question and still haven't seen anything. You have gotten your inner satisfaction and am seeing this thread no more then your own agenda without really caring about a solution. I'm done with this thread.
~Victor

Victor

1) what is your question.

2) what is your proposal for dealing with the influx of unwanted babeis created by an abortion ban.

 

[Lintu]

Some of us belong to religions where abortion is not only okay, but is also considered obligatory in some cases. But no one seems to care about religious beliefs outside of Christianity in this country.

But anyway, I absolutely agree that anyone who is against abortion should offer to take in unwanted children. Many people who are against abortion are also against contraception and also don't seem to particularly care about educating teens, the poor, and the otherwise uneducated about reproduction. If contraception and reproductive education are not offered, the responsibility is not on the person who becomes pregnant, but on the people who prevented her from learning about how not to become pregnant. And I don't want to hear the abstinence argument, as it simply isn't realistic.

Do we really want more kids living in poverty? Because that's exactly what will happen if abortion is made illegal. And those children, if they survive, will be less likely to graduate from school and less likely to become productive citizens. Higher crime rates, here we come. I'm sick of the rightist rhetoric that those of us who support abortion are immoral, horrible people. Some of us simply don't care about a fetus when compared to an actual life and the suffering that is caused when a person is brought into an unloving, uncaring world. So if you don't want abortion to be legal, you had best be supporting education, contraception, and adoption in your own home. Otherwise you are wishing (at high likelihood) a cruel life to many future children.

All I know is that if it becomes legal, like jamaesi I'll be educating everyone I know on herbal abortions. I know that if I were in the position, I'd rather be dead than forced into pregnancy and 18 years of a child I didn't want. Chances are high that I'll never be in that position, but that's the truth.