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If Adam had not sinned.

Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
gnostic said:
Nothing in the Genesis 2-3 speaks of spirits or souls.

yes it does. Chapter Two....verse seven.

And nothing suggests that they were immortals BEFORE they ate fruit. From what I can see, they were already mortals.
Click to expand...

Otherwise...spot on.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Then the LORD God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

i can sort of see why you would think that thief...
but i think you are reading into it. the soul is an idea that, if god wanted to explain, he could have...but in actuality it was left to this which really doesn't say anything about a spirit, only what people label a spirit as...

if we don't breathe we are not able to be...and why did that first breath come about?
to feed oxygen to the brain...
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
waitasec said:
Then the LORD God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

i can sort of see why you would think that thief...
but i think you are reading into it. the soul is an idea that, if god wanted to explain, he could have...but in actuality it was left to this which really doesn't say anything about a spirit, only what people label a spirit as...

if we don't breathe we are not able to be...and why did that first breath come about?
to feed oxygen to the brain...
Click to expand...

My copy uses the word 'soul'.
I understand the distinction.
But it would be difficult to explain and probably should do so under another thread.

Perhaps it would be sufficient to say...
Man as a species on Day Six....
Day Seven.....nothing more....
Chapter Two is an incident unique to Adam.
A chosen son of God...and a change of mind and heart.

The breath of life is not physical.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Thief said:
My copy uses the word 'soul'.
I understand the distinction.
But it would be difficult to explain and probably should do so under another thread.

Perhaps it would be sufficient to say...
Man as a species on Day Six....
Day Seven.....nothing more....
Chapter Two is an incident unique to Adam.
A chosen son of God...and a change of mind and heart.

The breath of life is not physical.
Click to expand...

yet the physical body depends on breathing... air ...
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
waitasec said:
is this feeling physical or a metaphor?
Click to expand...

Well...if you lack faith...or belief in life after death.....

And it's not obvious to you?...you are something more than animal.

I would like to think some animal forms cross over.
Having some favored pets around would be nice.
And heaven without them would be....emptier.

But if no portion of you can cross over....
why do you bother with religious forums?

Do I sense a tainted motive?

Never mind about Mesty...I know he's tainted.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Thief said:
Well...if you lack faith...or belief in life after death.....

And it's not obvious to you?...you are something more than animal.
Click to expand...
not really...i just reason differently in a way my cat can't. however, my cat can reason in ways i cannot understand as well. so why should i think my life makes more sense to me compared to a cats understanding of their life?

I would like to think some animal forms cross over.
Having some favored pets around would be nice.
And heaven without them would be....emptier.
Click to expand...
i wonder why that would be, maybe because they are alive perhaps?

But if no portion of you can cross over....
why do you bother with religious forums?
Click to expand...
i can ask the same of you?
my assumption is, we both like to debate...;)

Do I sense a tainted motive?
Click to expand...
nope. is your motive tainted?

Never mind about Mesty...I know he's tainted.
Click to expand...
i think he has a lot to offer...
and so do you.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Well, let's just say that I disagree with you condensed version of it as it pertained to that post.
Click to expand...

There is just a verse from the bible and an one line simple conclusion in that post.

You may draw a different conclusion, but mine will be at least as accurate as yours. This much i am sure.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
There is just a verse from the bible and an one line simple conclusion in that post.

You may draw a different conclusion, but mine will be at least as accurate as yours. This much i am sure.
Click to expand...
Unless you read it in context and reach the conclusion that God said that Adam and Eve could not have the knoweldge of good and evil and live forever. It's ALL right here:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Genesis 3:22
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Unless you read it in context and reach the conclusion that God said that Adam and Eve could not have the knoweldge of good and evil and live forever. It's ALL right here:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Genesis 3:22
Click to expand...

I prefer the NIV version. It is more clear:

[22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.]

So, what exactly are you talking about?
The text is very clear that it was still completely possible for Adam ( after eating from the tree of knowledge ) to eat from the tree of life and still be granted an everlasting life. Which is why God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, so they wouldn't be able to do so.
 
J

James Humphreys

Member
Koldo said:
I prefer the NIV version. It is more clear:

[22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.]

So, what exactly are you talking about?
The text is very clear that it was still completely possible for Adam ( after eating from the tree of knowledge ) to eat from the tree of life and still be granted an everlasting life. Which is why God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, so they wouldn't be able to do so.
Click to expand...

The Tree of Life also appears in Revelation Chapter 22. It's leaves are for the healing of the nations (22:2) and those who wash their robes (are purified of sin) can eat of the tree of life (22:14) So it is not God's will to permanently bar us from eating from the tree of life. By Adam and Eve sinning they lost that right, which God wanted, and still wants, to give to man. I believe the Tree of Life is a symbol of Adam in perfection(and by extension Christ, the true Adam), and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve, who was a tree with the potential of either good or evil, depending on whether or not she ate of the fruit or not.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
James Humphreys said:
The Tree of Life also appears in Revelation Chapter 22. It's leaves are for the healing of the nations (22:2) and those who wash their robes (are purified of sin) can eat of the tree of life (22:14) So it is not God's will to permanently bar us from eating from the tree of life. By Adam and Eve sinning they lost that right, which God wanted, and still wants, to give to man. I believe the Tree of Life is a symbol of Adam in perfection(and by extension Christ, the true Adam), and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve, who was a tree with the potential of either good or evil, depending on whether or not she ate of the fruit or not.
Click to expand...

I actually had to stop and think for moment.....but then...

You know a tree by the fruit it bears.
It will be good fruit...or not.

And most people who believe Genesis would say...Eve, then Adam...
did partake.
 
J

James Humphreys

Member
Thief said:
I actually had to stop and think for moment.....but then...

You know a tree by the fruit it bears.
It will be good fruit...or not.

And most people who believe Genesis would say...Eve, then Adam...
did partake.
Click to expand...

Yes, both Adam and Eve bear responsibility for eating. But if the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve, then the fruit is a symbol of her love. Eve's love was eaten two times, and both times both she and someone else ate. If the second time it was Adam, her intended spouse who ate, who was it that ate of her love the first time? The one that initiated the temptation.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
James Humphreys said:
Yes, both Adam and Eve bear responsibility for eating. But if the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve, then the fruit is a symbol of her love. Eve's love was eaten two times, and both times both she and someone else ate. If the second time it was Adam, her intended spouse who ate, who was it that ate of her love the first time? The one that initiated the temptation.
Click to expand...

I don't think of the first couple as symbols.
Someone had to be first.

Adam is a chosen son of God.
The Garden is the means of alteration...the course of Man.

Eve is a clone....literally.
She had no navel.

Eve was Adam's twin sister....and given to Adam as a bride.

The tree of knowledge is a metaphor.
So too the tree of life.
 
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