If America went without religion...

[Guy Threepwood]

The US is pretty atheistic, & we have oodles of religious freedom.
Now for an irrelevant video....

Belief in Darwinism is about 19% according to Gallup. If Darwin were alive today, I think he'd probably be one of the 81%, being a pretty smart dude and not bound by intellectual/academic consensus

It was a pretty compelling idea 150 years ago, but science has come a long way since then. The Bible... still #1 after a couple of millennia!

 

[Revoltingest]

Belief in Darwinism is about 19% according to Gallup. If Darwin were alive today, I think he'd probably be one of the 81%, being a pretty smart dude and not bound by intellectual/academic consensus

It was a pretty compelling idea 150 years ago, but science has come a long way since then. The Bible... still #1 after a couple of millennia!

If you were a superhero, you'd be....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

About 20% of the USA's population have no religious affiliation whereas 80% do affiliate with a religion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States

For the sake of argument What do you think America would be like if this figure was reversed and 80% of Americans did not have a religion?

What would change (if anything)?

Autocross would suffer.

There are plenty of people who like to spend their free time racing around orange cones in parking lots. When lots of buildings aren't used on Sundays, this makes finding suitable parking lots easier.

 

[Milton Platt]

About 20% of the USA's population have no religious affiliation whereas 80% do affiliate with a religion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States

For the sake of argument What do you think America would be like if this figure was reversed and 80% of Americans did not have a religion?

What would change (if anything)?

Too loose......what does "affiliate with a religion" mean, exactly? Is it the same as practicing that religion? Probably not. I know for a fact that many people will go to church and sit in the pew because the husband or wife prods them to do so. They are "affiliating" with that religion, but they are not practicing it in any meaningful way.

You can look at some of the countries that are reversed statistically ( there are some) and compare crime rates, etc. to see what might happen.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

You could have asked all the people who risked their lives fleeing those places to reach America

How many of those countries have you spent time in? Or is your knowledge of them merely intellectual?

Of the seven I mentioned? Five.

And no one is "risking their lives" to "flee" to the US from those mentioned countries today. Are you kidding?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Right, so by and large, those countries with the most religious freedom are the least atheist. Atheism generally requires a large government oppression of religious freedom

That seems a remarkable way of interpreting the information presented.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No it doesn't; usually it indicates a country whose culture prioritizes and privileges better education as opposed to anti-intellectualism, which is a huge problem in countries like USA & Australia.

Hmmm...can you please leave us out of that picture? We have our share of ***-clowns, and probably New Zealand,'s share too, but we are a well-functioning democracy with low levels of religion. And better weather than Finland.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Belief in Darwinism is about 19% according to Gallup.

Link please.

If Darwin were alive today, I think he'd probably be one of the 81%, being a pretty smart dude and not bound by intellectual/academic consensus

Whilst I'm pretty sure he wouldn't believe in Darwinism, I'm also pretty sure he'd find evolutionary science very interesting. The theory of evolution has...amazingly...evolved.

It was a pretty compelling idea 150 years ago, but science has come a long way since then. The Bible... still #1 after a couple of millennia!

#1? How so?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Education would improve. Teen pregnancies and STIs would go down. Non-discrimination laws would pass without problem or issue. Medical technology and understanding would achieve a golden era of breakthroughs, cures, and potential never before seen. No one would be living under the assumption Jesus is returning within their lifetime, which alone would also change things dramatically, and most likely in a positive manner. We may even begin to loose that lingering Puritan work ethic and modesty and stop being so uptight and start enjoying life.
As for me, I would party, I would celebrate, I would be so very happy, and then wonder what to do now that I'm no longer fighting a major thorn in my side that has been a bane to me, many of my friends, many hurt children, and a number of communities.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You could have asked all the people who risked their lives fleeing those places to reach America

All of those countries are free countries, including religion. Japan even has a pretty cool idea, with what they call freedom of ideology.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Link please.

Whilst I'm pretty sure he wouldn't believe in Darwinism, I'm also pretty sure he'd find evolutionary science very interesting. The theory of evolution has...amazingly...evolved.



#1? How so?[/QUOTE]

The most popular, influential, widely read book in the history of humanity. Still resonates with people more than any other book today.

Origin of species.. was influential in it's day in certain circles, but 150 years on, the core premise/predictions of the theory don't hold up to scientific scrutiny so well

 

[Guy Threepwood]

All of those countries are free countries, including religion. Japan even has a pretty cool idea, with what they call freedom of ideology.

Yes and no,

& our societies are very much shaped by their histories,

Japan is it's own case in many respects I'd agree, but not without it's own religious oppression

France

The 1685 revocation of the Edict of Nantes created a state of affairs in France similar to that of virtually every other European country of the period, where only the majority state religion was tolerated. The experiment of religious toleration in Europe was effectively ended for the time being. In practice, the revocation caused France to suffer a brain drain, as it lost a large number of skilled craftsmen, including key designers such as Daniel Marot.
Upon leaving France, Huguenots took with them knowledge of important techniques and production – which had a significant effect on the quality of the silk, plate glass, silversmithing for which the Huguenots were renowned, and cabinet making industries of those regions to which they relocated. Some rulers, such as Frederick Wilhelm of Brandenburg, who issued the Edict of Potsdam, encouraged the Protestants to flee and settle in their countries.

Further information: Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution
During the French Revolution, the Catholic Church lost its power and influence. The Civil Constitution of the Clergy, passed in 1790, put the Catholic Church under state control.

([Today] most Catholic churches, Protestant temples, and Jewish synagogues are owned by the government. and those using them to worship are subjected to taxes)


Sweden

Liberalization and other faiths[edit]
In order to curb Pietism several Royal Decrees and Acts of Parliament were proclaimed in the 18th century, which forbade Swedish citizens to practice any religion besides mandatory Lutheran Sunday Mass attendance and daily family devotions. Without the presence of a Lutheran clergyman public religious gatherings were forbidden. It remained illegal until 1860 for Lutheran Swedes to convert to another confession or religion. From then, and unto 1951, it was legal to leave the Church of Sweden for the purpose of becoming a member of another officially recognised religious denomination. From 1951, it is legal to leave the church, without giving a reason. From 1951 and unto 1977 religious communities (i.e. abbeys, priories, convents and such) were not to be established without the permission of the Crown, but that clause was abolished in 1977.



Also note, that to the extent religious freedom has returned to Russia and China, so has faith & Christianity returned

 

[Kirran]

What some people don't seem to get is that Darwinism is not some religion rivalling Christianity, with Darwin as prophet and the Origin of Species as scripture. I've studied modern evolutionary science, and wouldn't gain anything by reading the Origin of Species, since we've moved on from it.

 

[Kirran]

Yes and no,

& our societies are very much shaped by their histories,

Japan is it's own case in many respects I'd agree, but not without it's own religious oppression

France

The 1685 revocation of the Edict of Nantes created a state of affairs in France similar to that of virtually every other European country of the period, where only the majority state religion was tolerated. The experiment of religious toleration in Europe was effectively ended for the time being. In practice, the revocation caused France to suffer a brain drain, as it lost a large number of skilled craftsmen, including key designers such as Daniel Marot.
Upon leaving France, Huguenots took with them knowledge of important techniques and production – which had a significant effect on the quality of the silk, plate glass, silversmithing for which the Huguenots were renowned, and cabinet making industries of those regions to which they relocated. Some rulers, such as Frederick Wilhelm of Brandenburg, who issued the Edict of Potsdam, encouraged the Protestants to flee and settle in their countries.

Further information: Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution
During the French Revolution, the Catholic Church lost its power and influence. The Civil Constitution of the Clergy, passed in 1790, put the Catholic Church under state control.

([Today] most Catholic churches, Protestant temples, and Jewish synagogues are owned by the government. and those using them to worship are subjected to taxes)


Sweden

Liberalization and other faiths[edit]
In order to curb Pietism several Royal Decrees and Acts of Parliament were proclaimed in the 18th century, which forbade Swedish citizens to practice any religion besides mandatory Lutheran Sunday Mass attendance and daily family devotions. Without the presence of a Lutheran clergyman public religious gatherings were forbidden. It remained illegal until 1860 for Lutheran Swedes to convert to another confession or religion. From then, and unto 1951, it was legal to leave the Church of Sweden for the purpose of becoming a member of another officially recognised religious denomination. From 1951, it is legal to leave the church, without giving a reason. From 1951 and unto 1977 religious communities (i.e. abbeys, priories, convents and such) were not to be established without the permission of the Crown, but that clause was abolished in 1977.



Also note, that to the extent religious freedom has returned to Russia and China, so has faith & Christianity returned

In practice, France and Sweden are today both very religiously liberal, although there are certain anti-Muslim stirrings in the former. This is true in the USA as well. I can assure you that the low levels of religiosity here in the UK and in much of the rest of Europe do not inhibit our ability to uphold human rights ideals.

The UK is about half Christian, at best, and has the sixth-highest-ranked religious freedom level in the world. Russia is about 75% Christian, and is the sixth-lowest-ranked.

EDIT: In looking at this, I found an interesting chart.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

In practice, France and Sweden are today both very religiously liberal, although there are certain anti-Muslim stirrings in the former. This is true in the USA as well. I can assure you that the low levels of religiosity here in the UK and in much of the rest of Europe do not inhibit our ability to uphold human rights ideals.

EDIT: In looking at this, I found an interesting chart.

the UK culture was very much based on religious/ mostly Christian values, and for most people you only have to go back a generation or two, to find practicing/ church goers, so most young people, religious or not, are still brought up with some of those values, whether they recognize it or not.

But can you honestly look around and say there has been no slip of moral values in the last couple of generations ?!?!

So to say that those values are no loner needed, is like the idle son or grandson of a billionaire saying 'you don't need a work ethic to be rich, look at me!"

 

[Kirran]

the UK culture was very much based on religious/ mostly Christian values, and for most people you only have to go back a generation or two, to find practicing/ church goers, so most young people, religious or not, are still brought up with some of those values, whether they recognize it or not.

But can you honestly look around and say there has been no slip of moral values in the last couple of generations ?!?!

So to say that those values are no loner needed, is like the idle son or grandson of a billionaire saying 'you don't need a work ethic to be rich, look at me!"

Yeah, the UK was historically Christian, but to be honest I think the secular (i.e. neither in support of nor opposition to religion) values of the Enlightenment are more of a factor in defining Western culture overall, including that of the UK. In any case, some very Christian countries have poor religious freedom and some very irreligious countries have good religious freedom. And vice versa. Japan is a good example, because it's both largely irreligious and not of Christian heritage. South Korea is another.

I certainly can honestly say I don't think there's been a slip in moral values in the last couple of generations in my country. If you base your moral values on American Christian conservatism, I guess we've drifted from that.

Religiosity in such cases generally refers to organised religion. Shenism and Shintoism remain strong in China and Japan, but these aren't necessarily religions so much as traditions and spiritual bases.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

. If you base your moral values on American Christian conservatism, I guess we've drifted from that.

.

We certainly have, we went from the Andy Griffith show to Grand Theft Auto in those last two generations. If people don't see any 'slip' there it's because their moral gauges have slipped along with it.

Before Christianity, Rome was arguably the most advanced civilization/culture on the planet, their favorite entertainment was watching innocent people get ripped apart by wild animals- and using sex slaves. There is no rule that says morals are an inherent product of an organized society, without a moral compass, they can easily just have more organized immorality

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We certainly have, we went from the Andy Griffith show to Grand Theft Auto in those last two generations. If people don't see any 'slip' there it's because their moral gauges have slipped along with it.

The 60's...when Andy Griffith was on tv, and interracial marriage was legalised.
Black leaders and US presidents assassinated.
Vietnam and student riots dealt with fairly harshly.
Homosexuality was illegal.

I'm not selling it as the dark ages, but neither is there a clear slipping in morals. Unless your moral bar is more based on good manners than treating other humans equally I guess.

 

[Kirran]

We certainly have, we went from the Andy Griffith show to Grand Theft Auto in those last two generations. If people don't see any 'slip' there it's because their moral gauges have slipped along with it.

Before Christianity, Rome was arguably the most advanced civilization/culture on the planet, their favorite entertainment was watching innocent people get ripped apart by wild animals- and using sex slaves. There is no rule that says morals are an inherent product of an organized society, without a moral compass, they can easily just have more organized immorality

What's on TV includes some stuff that is more violent.

But the strides we've made in racial equality, gender equality, religious equality, queer rights and awareness, treatment of protestors and workfroces etc are huge.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes and no,

& our societies are very much shaped by their histories,

Japan is it's own case in many respects I'd agree, but not without it's own religious oppression

France

The 1685 revocation of the Edict of Nantes created a state of affairs in France similar to that of virtually every other European country of the period, where only the majority state religion was tolerated. The experiment of religious toleration in Europe was effectively ended for the time being. In practice, the revocation caused France to suffer a brain drain, as it lost a large number of skilled craftsmen, including key designers such as Daniel Marot.
Upon leaving France, Huguenots took with them knowledge of important techniques and production – which had a significant effect on the quality of the silk, plate glass, silversmithing for which the Huguenots were renowned, and cabinet making industries of those regions to which they relocated. Some rulers, such as Frederick Wilhelm of Brandenburg, who issued the Edict of Potsdam, encouraged the Protestants to flee and settle in their countries.

Further information: Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution
During the French Revolution, the Catholic Church lost its power and influence. The Civil Constitution of the Clergy, passed in 1790, put the Catholic Church under state control.

([Today] most Catholic churches, Protestant temples, and Jewish synagogues are owned by the government. and those using them to worship are subjected to taxes)


Sweden

Liberalization and other faiths[edit]
In order to curb Pietism several Royal Decrees and Acts of Parliament were proclaimed in the 18th century, which forbade Swedish citizens to practice any religion besides mandatory Lutheran Sunday Mass attendance and daily family devotions. Without the presence of a Lutheran clergyman public religious gatherings were forbidden. It remained illegal until 1860 for Lutheran Swedes to convert to another confession or religion. From then, and unto 1951, it was legal to leave the Church of Sweden for the purpose of becoming a member of another officially recognised religious denomination. From 1951, it is legal to leave the church, without giving a reason. From 1951 and unto 1977 religious communities (i.e. abbeys, priories, convents and such) were not to be established without the permission of the Crown, but that clause was abolished in 1977.



Also note, that to the extent religious freedom has returned to Russia and China, so has faith & Christianity returned

I noticed you cited laws from centuries ago that no longer stand today. And you're trying to say they are trying to do away with and oppress Christianity, but most European countries, including Sweden, have official state religions.