mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I don't know, because such knowledge can't be trusted as it could be a trick.
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If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
I don't know, because such knowledge can't be trusted as it could be a trick.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
As Christians keep telling us, Satan leads many into delusion but they have heard the voices in their heads that no one else hears, so they are not deluded.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
As Christians keep telling us, Satan leads many into delusion but they have heard the voices in their heads that no one else hears, so they are not deluded.
Well, I am a skeptic. So I could do different variation over the problem of whether objective reality is epistemologically fair or not..
Pogo
Well-Known Member
So I see in "does any god exist" chuckles.Well, I am a skeptic. So I could do different variation over the problem of whether objective reality is epistemologically fair or not..
As you may know, the Gospel of Matthew was the most Hebrew of the 4 Gospels and has over 60 references to verses and prophecies in the Tanakh. So did the author embellish the story of Jesus to make His Life consistent with prophecy? Its possible given it was written over 30 years after the crucifixion of Christ. We would both agree the account of Jesus is not literal history.
To verify historical information we need contemporaneous documents beyond the New Testament books. From Josephus (that has its own issues of being redacted) along with other evidence, most historians would agree Jesus was a real man, an itinerant Jewish Preacher who was baptised and crucified. Beyond that we have very little that can be historically verified.
As you know, Baha'is don't believe Jesus was literally raised from the dead or there were literal demons. I'm reasonably sure you don't either.
I don't think so. But, it will be interesting to see what it will be.
To me they tell lot of things, even if one name is not said.
It is interesting claim. If Jesus would have returned, we would have had the final judgment day already.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
There's just so many things that Evangelical Christians are expecting... The anti-Christ that would fool many.... can't buy or sell without the mark or number of the beast... the rapture and wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end? Oh, and Armageddon.
Does the Baha'i Faith give a reasonable answer as to why those things didn't happen as expected? And then give a reasonable answer as to why their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the return of Christ?
Some people have accepted those answers as reasonable and have come to recognize Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ. But it's not by recognizing Jesus. It is by recognizing that it won't be a literal Jesus coming back. And that he won't be coming back as expected.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
None of us have a corner on what the truth of these prophecies are.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that Judgment Day is upon us all right now. It has been eve since Baha'u'llah appeared.
The Day of Judgment
Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—
… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.
The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.
In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220
Sorry, even if we would take the word "end of the world" out, Jesus is speaking of matters that clearly have not yet happened (angels sent to gather, people cast into a furnace...).
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm know Baha'is have their interpretations of these, but what are they? They don't have much from Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha. A lot comes from Bill Sears in his book "A Thief in the Night". And there's some Baha'is that have wrote books about the book of Revelation.
Here's some of the questions... Armageddon.
The book of Revelation describes how the nations will be deceived into gathering at Armageddon to prepare for “the battle of that great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14-16). From this site northwest of Jerusalem, they will travel to the Valley of Jehoshaphat in the vicinity of Jerusalem itself (Joel 3:2; Zechariah 14:2).
That is where the returning Jesus Christ will swiftly and decisively defeat the combined armies of the earth (Revelation 19:11-21).
The Baha'is have the "Christ" returning to Persia. They have some verses they use to support that. But where do Christians think he will return to?“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east” (Zechariah 14:3-4...
This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.’ Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey” (Acts 1:9-12).
“Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, ‘Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem” (Micah 4:1-2).
A couple of things, no matter where exactly he returns to, it says, "this same Jesus", not a different person coming as the "Christ", and it says that the "Lord's house" shall be established on top of the mountains. Which mountains? Jerusalem and Mt. Zion seem let where it is talking about. Baha'is say it is Mt. Carmel. And have at least one verse to support their view. But the prophecies about when the "Christ" will return are a little odd. No one knows when? Yet, 1844 is determined to be the year? Okay, so maybe no one knows the exact day? But then who returns in 1844? It is not the "Christ". It was his forerunner, the Bab. They borrow from William Miller's calculations of the prophecies in Daniel to support it. And they use the various ways of coming up with "1260 days" in Revelation to say that it is 1844, because 1844 is the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar.
But what did the Muslims expect to happen in the year 1260? And only a few Christians believed 1844 was the year, along with some Christians believing in several other years. But still, it was not Baha'u'llah that declared on that day. I think Baha'is get around that by saying it was the year that the Baha'i "dispensation" started.
Anyway, with so many different beliefs and ways to interpret things, it sure makes for a lot of confusion. So much so, that not every eye saw his coming.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The angels have been sent to gather souls but nobody is going to be cast into a furnace. If that is in the NT, those are not the words of Jesus.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Is this what you are referring to?
Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Jesus says that in Matt. 13:40-42.
I was referring to this:
As therefore the darnel is gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Matt. 13:40-42
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Nobody knows that Jesus actually said that and there is no reason to believe he did.
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.
Virtually all of Jesus’ words in the Gospel of John were voted down by scholars meeting in Sonoma, including a pulpit favorite, 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son. . . .”
Formed in part to counteract literalist views of the Bible, the Jesus Seminar, a 200-member group of mainline biblical scholars from all over the country, has stirred controversy since its first meetings in 1985. “Televangelists on talk shows say it’s the work of the devil,” said founder Robert Funk, a New Testament scholar who has published widely in Gospel studies.........
Seminar member Marcus Borg of Oregon State University, who also chairs the Historical Jesus Section of the large Society of Biblical Literature, said that his experience of teaching adults is that the findings will “feed a hunger” in the churches.
“Many mainstream Christians can no longer believe the picture of Jesus they got as children,” Borg said.
Funk contended that most mainline scholars would agree with the Jesus Seminar that in the parallel Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, plus the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, “Jesus speaks regularly in adages or aphorisms, or in parables, or in witticisms created as rebuff or retort in the context of dialogue or debate. It is clear he did not speak in long monologues of the type found in the Gospel of John.” ........
THE REJECTED SAYINGS
The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:
John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”
Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”
Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Nobody knows that Jesus actually said that and there is no reason to believe he did.
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.
Virtually all of Jesus’ words in the Gospel of John were voted down by scholars meeting in Sonoma, including a pulpit favorite, 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son. . . .”
Formed in part to counteract literalist views of the Bible, the Jesus Seminar, a 200-member group of mainline biblical scholars from all over the country, has stirred controversy since its first meetings in 1985. “Televangelists on talk shows say it’s the work of the devil,” said founder Robert Funk, a New Testament scholar who has published widely in Gospel studies.........
Seminar member Marcus Borg of Oregon State University, who also chairs the Historical Jesus Section of the large Society of Biblical Literature, said that his experience of teaching adults is that the findings will “feed a hunger” in the churches.
“Many mainstream Christians can no longer believe the picture of Jesus they got as children,” Borg said.
Funk contended that most mainline scholars would agree with the Jesus Seminar that in the parallel Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, plus the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, “Jesus speaks regularly in adages or aphorisms, or in parables, or in witticisms created as rebuff or retort in the context of dialogue or debate. It is clear he did not speak in long monologues of the type found in the Gospel of John.” ........
Seminar fellows, however, years ago voted down the apocalyptic voice of Jesus when he is quoted as saying he will return someday amid tumult and turmoil. Scholars felt that the doomsaying words were put on his lips to bolster the hopes of Gospel writers and their churches about 30 to 60 years after Jesus’ lifetime.
THE REJECTED SAYINGS
The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:
John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”
Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”
Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Going back a few verses before that...
Matthew 13:37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Revelation19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Lots of stuff going on here... Beasts, Satan, a false prophet. But what we don't have is a forerunner like the Bab coming ahead of the "Christ". And what we don't have is the return of Christ doing away will evil people. We also have a 1000-year period of time where Satan is chained up then released and then destroyed. Up to now, Baha'is have used the day equals a year thing. Which means, to be consistent, they would have to change the 1000 years into days then back into years. That would be 360,000 years? I don't know how they explain that.Now for Christians to be guessing is no problem for me. For them, Jesus hasn't come back yet, so all they can do is guess and wait for the day.
But Baha'is claim that "Christ" has come. These things should have been fulfilled. Problem is... they are just guessing what it all means also. Only a couple of chapters of Revelation have been interpreted by Abdul Baha'. I think it was chapters 11 and 12. And I don't think it is all that good. But Baha'is are stuck with it and have to support it and believe his interpretation. The weirdest one for me is how he makes the "Three Woes" Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.