If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?

[1213]

So, what do these verses mean?

For example, as lighting that comes in east, but its light is seen in west, how that can be.
Consider a lighting. If a lighting happens in Israel, it wll not be see in USA. Maybe can be seen, at most, 20 km further. So, how this verse will mean, if Christ comes in east, He will be seen in the western Continents, which are thousands of kilometers away?
Unless, other people, spread the news, through media. Then, what are we going to do with this verse:

I think the point is, it will be visible to all, it is not something that happens so that you would not notice it.

 

[1213]

The Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know he would not be the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I think those means, the people will have new names.

When Jesus referred to the coming of the Son of man, He was referring to the return of His Spirit, the Spirit of God, in another man.
Jesus was referring to one like the Son of man, He was not referring to Himself. We know that the following verses are not about Jesus since Jesus was the Son of man, not one like the Son of man.

Sorry, I don't think so, for example because:

who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.
Acts 1:11

Daniel 7:13-14 cannot be about Jesus because Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world, it was in heaven.

I have understood his kingdom is in the people:

Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation; neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have been over this with many Christians for over 10 years, and not one Christian can produce any verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth. None of the verses that say we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds are Jesus saying that HE s coming back.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

That is because his predicted return was during the lives of the twelve disciples. Oh wait a second, Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man. So if he said that the son of man will return, that is him predicting his own return.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think those means, the people will have new names.

Sorry, I don't think so, for example because:

who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.
Acts 1:11

I have understood his kingdom is in the people:

Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation; neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21

Sorry, reinterpretation after the fact is not prophecy.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men.

Can you give an example? I have read the whole Bible and I can't remember such use of clouds. When God appears (theophany) before man it's usually a visual sign of his presence.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Jesus will not come at a all unless He was a liar.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

You're contradicting yourself. This verse actually says he will come.

ESV translation:
"Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live."

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

This chapter is also about going to the Father and coming back. Some verses in context:

16 "A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me."

17 So some of his disciples said to one another, "What is this that he says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I am going to the Father'?"

22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think the point is, it will be visible to all, it is not something that happens so that you would not notice it.

Ok, but how though? How would Christ come in a way that every eye shall see Him? And why He said "watch"? Why would people need to watch, if when He comes, it will be easily noticeable anyways? I suppose this is a puzzle. Maybe some Christians do not think it is necessary to really solve it. But, what if, Jesus was speaking in parables? Maybe He did not really mean literally.

 

[PearlSeeker]

None of the verses that say we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds are Jesus saying that HE s coming back.

A lot of verses say that Jesus spoke of himself as the Son of man. For example:

7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner."
8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold."
9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luke 19)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Why would people need to watch, if when He comes, it will be easily noticeable anyways?

Because false Christs and false prophets will come before him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Because false Christs and false prophets will come before him.

Yap, that could be one reason, but within the context of the verses of the Bible, Jesus was saying, He comes like a thief in the night, therefore watch!
Seems to me, the context shows, the reason He is saying "Watch", is because He comes like a thief in the night, that is "unnoticeable, as a thief in the night". If He flys everywhere in the sky, does not look like a thief in the night, does it?

 

[CG Didymus]

And other Gospels have other claims. You can support almost any belief with the Bible since it is quite often on both sides of an issue.

Yes, Baha'is find the ones that support their claims. And Christians find the ones that support theirs. And for Jews, neither of them have fulfilled the Messianic prophesies.

I think the point is, it will be visible to all, it is not something that happens so that you would not notice it.

Yes, every eye will see it. But, since, hardly anyone saw the coming of the Baha'i prophet, they focus on "He will come as a thief in the night."

Sorry, I don't think so, for example because:

who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven.
Acts 1:11

"This Jesus"? And at the end of Revelation it says, 12 “Look, I am coming soon! 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Plus, through out Revelation it is the "Lamb" that is coming back. The best Baha'is can do with that is claim that the Bab was the "Lamb that was slain."

But the question I always ask Baha'is is... Where in any Scriptures of any religion does the promised one come back and not fix things?

Oh wait a second, Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man. So if he said that the son of man will return, that is him predicting his own return.

The problem for Baha'is is they have to show that it is not Jesus coming back... but that it is Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah coming. Three "Messiahs". And for the Jews, that makes four Messiahs have to be predicted in their Scriptures.

Can you give an example? I have read the whole Bible and I can't remember such use of clouds.

That's how Baha'is interpret "clouds". Here's a quote from Abdul Baha...

Although the divine teachings are truth and reality, yet with the passage of time thick clouds envelop and obscure them. These clouds are imitations and superstitions; they are not the fundamentals. Then the Sun of Truth, the Word of God, arises again, shines forth once more in the glory of its power and disperses the enveloping darkness.
For a long time the divine precepts of the effulgent Word were obscured by clouds of superstition and error until Bahá’u’lláh appeared upon the horizon of humanity, rent the shadows, scattered the clouds and revealed anew the foundations of the teachings of God.

You're contradicting yourself. This verse actually says he will come.



ESV translation:
"Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live."

16 "A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me."

And in the Gospel stories, they did see him again. But not in the Baha'i interpretation of the Gospels.

From letters written on behalf of the Guardian​

​

We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.
9 October 1947 to an individual believer​

​

Baha'is have the physical body of Jesus dead and gone. It didn't come back to life. But that's not what the Gospel writers say...

Act 1:1 ...I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.​

​

Then there is the verse that Jesus tells one of the disciples to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. It all depends what a person wants to believe. But, it makes me wonder, why believe either one?

 

[Alien826]

You mean, flying in 200 countries, and all their towns and localities, so that everyone sees him, even in north and south pole, and Amazon? That's too much flying, to me.

Superman could do it. Remember when he flew around the world so fast that he turned back time? If Superman can do it, Jesus can do it twice as much!

 

[PearlSeeker]

Then there is the verse that Jesus tells one of the disciples to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. It all depends what a person wants to believe. But, it makes me wonder, why believe either one?

I'm not defending the credibility of the gospels. I'm not a believing Christian anymore but I can't bear seeing scripture being butchered like this.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Yap, that could be one reason, but within the context of the verses of the Bible, Jesus was saying, He comes like a thief in the night, therefore watch!
Seems to me, the context shows, the reason He is saying "Watch", is because He comes like a thief in the night, that is "unnoticeable, as a thief in the night". If He flys everywhere in the sky, does not look like a thief in the night, does it?

Like a thief means that nobody (except the Father) knows the day. Some will be surprised and unprepared (for the judgement - the works will be exposed). To be prepared means to repent, have faith and live righteously like it could happen today.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

Matthew 24:43
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Luke 18:8
... when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Like a thief means that nobody (except the Father) knows the day. Some will be surprised and unprepared (for the judgement - the works will be exposed). To be prepared means to repent, have faith and live righteously like it could happen today.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

Matthew 24:43
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

So, let's say, "thief in the night" means, He comes suddenly and no one other than the Father know which day.

1. What difference does it make, whether one watches or does not watch? I suppose there must make a difference to watch, since Jesus emphasized to watch, right?

2. What does He mean by watching? Like keep looking at sky?

2. What difference does it make, to know, that He comes like a thief without anyone knowing?

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Luke 18:8
... when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

To me, when jesus says "Watch", means, there would be a good possibility that, if one does not watch, he/she can miss it, just as the first time He came, majority missed that Messiah has come.
Mind you, in Old Testament, with regards to Messiah, it says, "Son of man comes down with clouds", yet, in the first coming, He did not literally come down with any clouds. Could all these be some parables or symbols?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is because his predicted return was during the lives of the twelve disciples. Oh wait a second, Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man. So if he said that the son of man will return, that is him predicting his own return.

The following verses are about the Messiah who will come at the end of the age.
Christians believe that these verses are about Jesus, but Jesus was the Son of man so the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you give an example? I have read the whole Bible and I can't remember such use of clouds. When God appears (theophany) before man it's usually a visual sign of his presence.

The following article explains the symbolic meaning of clouds.

The Spiritual Meaning and Symbolism of Clouds

Learn about the spiritual and symbolic meaning of clouds in the Bible and the Baha'i Faith.

bahaiteachings.org

Baha'u'llah also explained the meaning of “coming in the clouds of heaven” as we wee it recorded in the Bible.

“The term “heaven” denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written: “Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;” and on their seats is inscribed: “Verily, His ways differ every day.” 27 They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: “coming in the clouds of heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 67

 

[Trailblazer]

You're contradicting yourself. This verse actually says he will come.

ESV translation:
"Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live."

That verse does not say that Jesus will return to this world.
"but you will see me" What Jesus was referring to was seeing His Spirit return, not the return of His body.

This chapter is also about going to the Father and coming back. Some verses in context:

16 "A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me."

17 So some of his disciples said to one another, "What is this that he says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I am going to the Father'?"

22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.

There is nothing about Jesus coming back to this world in those verses.
"and again a little while, and you will see me." What Jesus was referring to was seeing His Spirit return, not the return of His body.

 

[Trailblazer]

A lot of verses say that Jesus spoke of himself as the Son of man. For example:

7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner."
8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold."
9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luke 19)

I am not disputing that Jesus was the Son of man, I believe He was, I just do not believe that Jesus was the Son of man coming in the clouds.

I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of man since He was the return of the Christ Spirit.

Since Jesus was the Son of man, the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I believe that those verses are about Baha'u'llah who was one like Jesus, and the return of the Son of man.

Jesus ascended into heaven. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Those verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the point is, it will be visible to all, it is not something that happens so that you would not notice it.

How could it be visible to all given all people cannot be at the same place at the same time?