Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
"that there is a better place, a promised land;"
You got Israel. What more do you want?
Promises, promises, promises. Have they ever been fulfilled?
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If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?
- Thread starter rubi
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- christ christainity debate
You got Israel. What more do you want?
Promises, promises, promises. Have they ever been fulfilled?
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes God's promises are fulfilled. The promised land is just one of them.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
'Everlasting life' is another. Scammers make all kind of promises.
Brian2
Veteran Member
God of the Bible has delivered on hard promises and wants us to trust Him for the rest.
It is not as if we have anything to lose, we aren't being scammed out of anything, we are trusting God who has delivered on promises in the past, to keep delivering to and for us.
seekandfind
Member
An angel told both Mary and Joseph what was happening. Your acting like many scriptures arent there that are.
seekandfind
Member
Jesus was clearly created by his God and ours.
Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"
Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"
Colt
Well-Known Member
Writers of legends about the birth don’t quote Mary, Joseph or Jesus directly. In that enchanted age it was believed that sin transferred by inheritance, so they needed Jesus to be conceived miraculously.
seekandfind
Member
Trying to add philosophy to what is written?
Colt
Well-Known Member
No, just pointing out the inconsistencies in the narrative. God neither wrote nor inspired ANY of the scripture books, however that doesn’t mean that there isn’t some truth in the story.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Firstborn does not mean "first one born" in that context.
Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
If it meant "first one born" in Psalm 89, which is about Jesus, then it would not say "And I will appoint him to be my firstborn"
The first one born is not appointed, he is born first.
"Firstborn" in Col 1:15 means 'preeminent one, heir".
We know it does not mean "first one born" also because the passage goes on to say that all things were created through Him.
If He is a created thing then He was created through Himself.
It is for this reason that the Watch Tower had no right to translate the passage "all other things were created through him". It changes the meaning completely.
And even if "the firstborn of all creation" shows that He was part of creation, that does not mean that He was created. What happened is that He stepped into the creation when He became a man.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Would you mention one!
seekandfind
Member
Thats not an inconsistancy, you ignored the rest to fit your made up narrative.
seekandfind
Member
"Part of creation" would mean he is created. God is not part of creation. Jesus was his first creation. He then had Jesus create eveything else...
Prov 8:30 "Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time"
I understand if you cant see it. I used to believe in the trinity doctrine as well. So i understand what it means to have to "down-size" Jesus from the Almighty God to a Mighty god.
Phil 2:6 "who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God."
Did he exalt himself or did someone else exhalt him?
Phil 2: 9 "For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position..."
Colt
Well-Known Member
The virgin birth is the made-up narrative that was added to the story long after Jesus was gone. Details left in the story are what proves the inconsistency.
* Jesus had been known from birth as a regular person. Mark 6:3
* His own family thought he was crazy when he began teaching that he was Gods son. Mark 3:21
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What's so bizarre is that some think that the Church abandoned Jesus, which makes no sense on multiple counts:
One, is Jesus' promise that he would guide his Church until the end of time, and the only church that existed that far back was "the Way", which eventually morphed into the Catholic Church. The other churches split away later.
Another is that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to make some changes if needed, and they in turn passed that on to those they appointed with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Another is that the Protestant church and the JW's didn't exist until much later in time, thus it's illogical that they were the replacement of the original church. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church and heard over and over again about how evil the Catholic Church was and is, which increasingly made less and less sense as I studied theology more.
Another is that the laying on of hands was a way to consecrate appointees in the early Church as mentioned in Acts, and yet who passed this on to later churches? Who appointed them? Nada.
Finally, do I lose any sleep over this? No. But I mention it because of the bigotry that a small group uses here at RF over this. And my message to them is that if you don't like the Catholic Church or any other church, then don't go to them. Maybe mind your own business and let people follow Christ in the way they believe is right. Paul said to beware of those who sow division, and yet this is exactly what some do here.
Shalom, and have a great weekend.
One, is Jesus' promise that he would guide his Church until the end of time, and the only church that existed that far back was "the Way", which eventually morphed into the Catholic Church. The other churches split away later.
Another is that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to make some changes if needed, and they in turn passed that on to those they appointed with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Another is that the Protestant church and the JW's didn't exist until much later in time, thus it's illogical that they were the replacement of the original church. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church and heard over and over again about how evil the Catholic Church was and is, which increasingly made less and less sense as I studied theology more.
Another is that the laying on of hands was a way to consecrate appointees in the early Church as mentioned in Acts, and yet who passed this on to later churches? Who appointed them? Nada.
Finally, do I lose any sleep over this? No. But I mention it because of the bigotry that a small group uses here at RF over this. And my message to them is that if you don't like the Catholic Church or any other church, then don't go to them. Maybe mind your own business and let people follow Christ in the way they believe is right. Paul said to beware of those who sow division, and yet this is exactly what some do here.
Shalom, and have a great weekend.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I think you already mentioned the promise of the land of Israel.
There also was the promise to kick the Jews out of the land if they deserved it, and the promise to eventually bring them back to the land.
There is also the promise of the Messiah.
There are also many interspersed prophecies of both what would happen and what He would do. Many have been fulfilled and we await the fulfilment of others.
He never said he was God. At his Sanhedrin trial (during which they were looking for even false witnesses to frame him), he was never accused of claiming he was God; only that he said he was the son of God.
Yes, several.
3examples:
Matthew 7:21-23,
Matthew 24:3-25 (parallel w/ Luke 21:5-28),
&
Luke 19:43,44
Sectarian scholars can’t allow for writings to foretell the future, so they always say these books were written after Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 C.E. Same with the Hebrew Scripture prophecies: written after the foretold event.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus human body is part of creation. His spiritual soul would be what came from heaven to become a man.
So He stepped into creation when He became a man. He was not the first man to be born but was appointed by God to be His firstborn, preeminent one who is the heir (Romans 8:16,17) and ruler of creation (Rev 3:14)
Some people consider the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs to be talking about the pre human Jesus.
It's a passage with a variety of translations but it seems that "created" is not correct at Prov 8:22 but "possessed" is better, or even "got" and this goes along with the other uses of the same Hebrew word in Proverbs.
Also if this personification of Wisdom is indeed a person who was there helping with the creation, we know that this person had to be YHWH, who was the only one who spread out the earth and stretched out the heavens (Isa 44:24)
We can see this also when we compare Heb 1:10-12 to Isa 44:24 and know that if the heavens are the work of Jesus hands then Jesus has to be YHWH the only one who did that.
What do you think "existing in God's form" means and how do you think that existing in that form might give someone the idea that they could be equal to God?
After being sent to earth to be a man, lower than the angels, and humbling Himself before His equal, the one He has the same nature as, God, His Father, and being obedient to the death, His Father resurrected Him and glorified Him with the glory He had with His Father before the earth existed, and gave Him the rule forever over the everlasting Kingdom of God and all the other things which He, as the Son and heir of God, owned anyway. (John 16:15).
And everything includes of course God's name. This name seems to have been bestowed so that we would worship Him at the mention of His name and confess that He indeed is Lord (YHWH) and that glorifies His Father also who Jesus is the spittin image of.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus is a man still according to the resurrection stories and so His Father is still His God and the one who exalts and bestows on Him.
So the Son inherits all that is His and His Father serves Him by putting all things under His feet. Then He hands the Kingdom back to His Father and again subjects Himself to Him as it has been from eternity, since He has been the Son who submits to His Father from eternity.
But He still rules as King in the Kingdom of God.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That was the Jewish God, YHWH. He has no son. Talk about Christian God.
There were Jews in Israel even during Muslim times.
Jesus did not do anything which the Jewish messiah is supposed to do.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Jewish God has a Son in the OT and this Son is the Messiah.
Jesus did what He did and it is all prophesied in the OT. Jesus continues to do things as the Messiah who rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God and rules the Kingdom of God doing things in this Messianic age, that the Messiah is supposed to do. This includes building the Temple of God by building His Church in which the Spirit of God dwells.
There were Jews in Israel before Muslim times, so? Now Israel is the nation of the Jews again.