If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[rubi]

Huh? What are you talking about?

you said:

Jesus was a nice Jewish man who tried to be the messiah and failed.

I assume you said it under the assumption that he wasn't the Messiah. So, Christ wanted to be the Messiah and eventually, God made him the Messiah. Christianity says he always was the Messiah.. since he was God's son.

 

[rosends]

I assume you said it under the assumption that he wasn't the Messiah. So, Christ wanted to be the Messiah and eventually, God made him the Messiah. Christianity says he always was the Messiah.. since he was God's son.

are you saying that Jesus was the messiah?

 

[rubi]

The Israelites were unintended victims of their own priest class.

this suggests there is evil intent. As I was saying here, the plain translation of the word עלמה in Isaiah 7:14 is not a virgin but "the young woman". so, understandably the rabbis interpret the prophecy (that was told 700 years earlier and a context that makes you rethink whether it talks about the Messiah) as the plain translation. for a detailed explanation click here

as I understand, the angel Gabriel told Josef that Mary the child is God's son and he is the one who impregnate her. imagine Josef telling this to other people... it means that Christ grew up as a ******* in other people's eyes.

 

[rubi]

are you saying that Jesus was the messiah?

no. I'm taking into account the title of the thread. "if Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?"

 

[rubi]

The Septuagint was used within Jewish circles because of getting the word out to the diaspora as very few spoke Hebrew outside of eretz Israel. When the early scriptures were translated by and for the Church of the diaspora, this was used for centuries.

I don't think so. yes, people spoke foreign language but they knew Hebrew and definitely knew to read the Hebrew Tora.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't think so. yes, people spoke foreign language but they knew Hebrew and definitely knew to read the Hebrew Tora.

What people?

Where?​

According to what evidence?​

​

(Also, is there any particular reason why you spell Torah without the trailing 'h'?)

 

[rosends]

What people?

Where?​

According to what evidence?​

​

(Also, is there any particular reason why you spell Torah without the trailing 'h'?)

Just a side note -- there was an expectation in the past that anyone called to the torah for an aliyah read the portion he was called up for. That now we have a singular reader and the oleh just says the blessings is a change to accommodate people NOW who can't read.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

you said:

I assume you said it under the assumption that he wasn't the Messiah. So, Christ wanted to be the Messiah and eventually, God made him the Messiah. Christianity says he always was the Messiah.. since he was God's son.

Again, huh? If I say that he failed at being the messiah, there is no "so" that follows saying the opposite. Good lord, I don't even know how to address your lack of coherent thought.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just a side note -- there was an expectation in the past that anyone called to the torah for an aliyah read the portion he was called up for. That now we have a singular reader and the oleh just says the blessings is a change to accommodate people NOW who can't read.

Yes, but it's not clear to me what than says about, e.g., the first century CE.

 

[rosends]

Yes, but it's not clear to me what than says about, e.g., the first century CE.

very true. Just figured I'd throw it out there as a random data point

 

[Colt]

this suggests there is evil intent. As I was saying here, the plain translation of the word עלמה in Isaiah 7:14 is not a virgin but "the young woman". so, understandably the rabbis interpret the prophecy (that was told 700 years earlier and a context that makes you rethink whether it talks about the Messiah) as the plain translation. for a detailed explanation click here

as I understand, the angel Gabriel told Josef that Mary the child is God's son and he is the one who impregnate her. imagine Josef telling this to other people... it means that Christ grew up as a ******* in other people's eyes.

The virgin birth came from Pagan mythology. Jesus didn’t teach it and he was known as a normal person up until his public teaching at 30+ years old. Jesus was their first born and conceived the “natural way” between two married parents. The miracle of miracles was the Son of God becoming the person of Mary’s baby “at conception”.

Jesus also had siblings.

 

[Brian2]

Hes with those doing what he said. Just because someone claims to be part of Jesus' congregation doesnt mean they are

The point is that the Church existed from the time of Jesus and still exists. It did not disappear at the end of the apostolic age and then reappear in the 19th century in the form of Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet that is what JWs say happened.

 

[Brian2]

I highly doubt that

Many quotes in the gospels are from the Septuagint and the common language of the time was Greek and the Jews were spread over the world of that time, speaking Greek and using the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[seekandfind]

The point is that the Church existed from the time of Jesus and still exists. It did not disappear at the end of the apostolic age and then reappear in the 19th century in the form of Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet they is what JWs say happened.

What church was teaching the truth of the scriptures?

 

[Brian2]

but, to whom was it told? I didn't understand

Mary went to live with John after the death of Jesus. Matthew and John no doubt were friends and it seem plain that the story of the virgin birth became widely known among the Christian believers anyway.
So Matthew wrote the story He knew about and included the Septuagint of Isa 7:14 (unless Matthew wrote in Hebrew and Aramaic and someone who translated his gospel to Greek put in the Septuagint version of Isa 7:14.
It's interesting to speculate what might have happened, but seeing Isa 9 as Messianic and the child as being the child of Isa 7, the prophetic perfect tense can become appropriate and the alternative translation of almah as virgin, imo.

 

[Brian2]

What church was teaching the truth of the scriptures?

That is not the point. The Church, even if it had teachings that you might say are not the truth of the scriptures, existed from the time of Jesus, and still exists. It did not disappear and reappear in the 19th century.
It's nice to "take in knowledge" about Jesus and God but what it says is that we are to know them.

 

[metis]

I don't think so. yes, people spoke foreign language but they knew Hebrew and definitely knew to read the Hebrew Tora.

It matters not what you "think" as it is obvious that you have opinions you've formed without doing the research. Therefore, having a serious discussion with you is virtually impossible unless you actually do some studying.

Here, I'll even help you along on this: Septuagint - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

What church was teaching the truth of the scriptures?

In the 1st century, there was only 1 church that was created by Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[seekandfind]

That is not the point. The Church, even if it had teachings that you might say are not the truth of the scriptures, existed from the time of Jesus, and still exists. It did not disappear and reappear in the 19th century.
It's nice to "take in knowledge" about Jesus and God but what it says is that we are to know them.

Teachings that arent truth arent teachings Jesus "would be with".

 

[seekandfind]

That is not the point. The Church, even if it had teachings that you might say are not the truth of the scriptures, existed from the time of Jesus, and still exists. It did not disappear and reappear in the 19th century.
It's nice to "take in knowledge" about Jesus and God but what it says is that we are to know them.

Teachings that arent truth arent teachings Jesus "would be with".

And yes, absolutely, we are to know them. Part of knowing someone is to know their name. Knowing someone is also not putting characteristics on them that arent true...Like Jesus is Yhwh.