If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[dybmh]

the conversation on youtube was except Isaiah 14:7 is there any phrase that shows that the Messiah is the son of God? The reason that I asked this was that I saw that the Christian bible translates wrong the word "העלמה" as "a virgin" and as "the young woman". the answer I got is that it is the only considerable source, which means there was a deception by the people who edited the New Testament which as far as understand were the Romans, and since we know how important it was for them to make Christ God, it makes sense how they would stop at nothing to perfect their ability to have control over the people.

The one to use here, imo, is: Exodus 4:22

ואמרת אל־פרעה כה אמר יהוה בני בכרי ישראל׃

And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn;

No need for Hebrew, and basically it means that any Jews is the "Son of God". And then you can follow it up with verses showing that God has no form, and the whole idea of God producing a physical offspring is silly according to Judaism.

The nail in the coffin, if a preacher or missionary is obsessing over Isaiah, ( which they do because of the style of writing there )

Isaiah 2:4 + Matthew 10:34

That's an absolute contradiction. Jesus cannot be the messiah if he is bringing the sword. The messiah is supposed convince people to get rid of their swords and peace will flourish NOT division. The preacher will say, "no no, that's the 2nd coming." But you can just keep posting those verses. Till they put you on ignore, or whatever they do on YT.

We get preachers around here, for sure. So a lot of these topics have been presented and rebuked.

 

[rubi]

I can see no logical reason that *Romans*, who worshipped their own gods, would want Jesus to be God.

I've looked on Google for "who edited the new testament", and came across this Wikipedia page saying"The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[3] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa."

I thought it was known, they were the first church, they made it their official religion, there is a book called Romans in the new testament

 

[dybmh]

you're my master

We've had a lot great people come through here, and I've learned a lot from them.

שיר המעלות לדוד הנה מה־טוב ומה־נעים שבת אחים גם־יחד׃
A Song of Maalot of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

It's literally true. Unity! Am Yisrael Chai!

 

[Orbit]

I've looked on Google for "who edited the new testament", and came across this Wikipedia page saying"The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[3] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa."

I thought it was known, they were the first church, they made it their official religion, there is a book called Romans in the new testament

I thought you were referring to Romans of Jesus' time, not 300 years later.

 

[ChristineM]

and since we know how important it was for them to make Christ God,

How can this be? The Romans had several gods and the emperor's were considered gods.

I have a very different take on this but I'll stick the the NT version of Jesus's life.

What the bible says he taught, i.e.one god, went against the Roman way so he was crucified. Crucifixion was a method of execution reserved for traitors and terrorists to Rome.

And welcome to RF.

 

[dybmh]

How can this be? The Romans had several gods and the emperor's were considered gods.

I have a very different take on this but I'll stick the the NT version of Jesus's life.

What the bible says he taught, i.e.one god, went against the Roman way so he was crucified. Crucifixion was a method of execution reserved for traitors and terrorists to Rome.

And welcome to RF.

You said it right there: because Romans would follow a king-god-human hybrid. An emperor-god.

 

[rubi]

The one to use here, imo, is: Exodus 4:22

ואמרת אל־פרעה כה אמר יהוה בני בכרי ישראל׃

And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn;

No need for Hebrew, and basically it means that any Jews is the "Son of God". And then you can follow it up with verses showing that God has no form, and the whole idea of God producing a physical offspring is silly according to Judaism.

The nail in the coffin, if a preacher or missionary is obsessing over Isaiah, ( which they do because of the style of writing there )

Isaiah 2:4 + Matthew 10:34

That's an absolute contradiction. Jesus cannot be the messiah if he is bringing the sword. The messiah is supposed convince people to get rid of their swords and peace will flourish NOT division. The preacher will say, "no no, that's the 2nd coming." But you can just keep posting those verses. Till they put you on ignore, or whatever they do on YT.

We get preachers around here, for sure. So a lot of these topics have been presented and rebuked.

this is the link to the web page on youtube

they have this magical argument that pops out of the blue: Christ was the Messiah son of Josef and Christ is both him and Messiah son of David. I of course contradicted it and that was our last message

 

[dybmh]

this is the link to the web page on youtube

View attachment 79645
they have this magical argument that pops out of the blue: Christ was the Messiah son of Josef and Christ is both him and Messiah son of David. I of course contradicted it and that was our last message

Tree of life ministries... interesting. I don't spend much time on YT. Do you notice any Jews in the comments being swayed? Something also to consider. There may be people, FROM Tree of Life or other groups in those comments pretending to be Jews, and then they can comment in fake-support, "oh, wow, Im Jewish.. and I never knew that, i'm being saved!!!" which produces an illusion of social acceptance which maybe-maybe is convincing to a jewish person. But I doubt it.

 

[rubi]

How can this be? The Romans had several gods and the emperor's were considered gods.

I have a very different take on this but I'll stick the the NT version of Jesus's life.

What the bible says he taught, i.e.one god, went against the Roman way so he was crucified. Crucifixion was a method of execution reserved for traitors and terrorists to Rome.

And welcome to RF.

I've answered that

I've looked on Google for "who edited the new testament", and came across this Wikipedia page saying"The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[3] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa."

I thought it was known, they were the first church, they made it their official religion, there is a book called Romans in the new testament

I understand why it is difficult to see. the Romans in the 6th century BC until 1453. and we know that in the end, they were Christians.
I must say I love your and Orbit's motto and thank you for welcoming me.
what is "i.e.one god"?

 

[ChristineM]

I've answered that

Jolly good, after the fact. I understand now

 

[rubi]

Tree of life ministries... interesting. I don't spend much time on YT. Do you notice any Jews in the comments being swayed? Something also to consider. There may be people, FROM Tree of Life or other groups in those comments pretending to be Jews, and then they can comment in fake-support, "oh, wow, Im Jewish.. and I never knew that, i'm being saved!!!" which produces an illusion of social acceptance which maybe-maybe is convincing to a jewish person. But I doubt it.

I don't really read other people's comments if they are not talking to me.
missioners in Israel do act like crooks. Have had had on Passover the Matsa as the body and the four cups of wine as the blood of Christ?
this Christian video in Hebrew is addressed to Jews and it is a comment to the video of Rabbi Zamir Cohen about Christ. The man in this video says there are more versions of the Tanach. after I commented it, they shut down the comments section
another time I met a missioner outside of the train station Ha'hagana in Tel Aviv was telling me there is no hell and gave me a fake phone number that I wanted to comment, after I'll check it out. this was the last time I saw him.

 

[rubi]

Jolly good, after the fact. I understand now

what is "i.e.one god"?

 

[dybmh]

missioners in Israel do act like crooks

~confused~ isn't missionary work in Israel illegal?

after I commented it, they shut down the comments section

The Black Hebrew Israelites do that. Have you run into them?

another time I met a missioner outside of the train station Ha'hagana in Tel Aviv was telling me there is no hell and gave me a fake phone number that I wanted to comment, after I'll check it out. this was the last time I saw him.

wow, what an amazing experience it must be living there. Although, If I may, I **think** but I'm not sure... posting those videos anywhere on any forum helps the missionary. I think google has bots that crawl the net and use those sorts of postings-and-linking to produce their suggestions.

I'm not going to watch those videos you posted. Maybe just delete them from your posts?

 

[wellwisher]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Before Christ began his ministry he went to the desert to pray and fast. During his fast he was visited by Satan, who among other things, offered Jesus all the power and wealth of the kingdoms of the Earth, if Jesus would serve him.

Mathew 4;1 Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain and he showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence and he said to him, “All these I shall give to you if you will prostrate yourself and worship me.” At this, Jesus said to him, “Get away Satan! It is written: The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.” Then the devil left him, and behold angels came and ministered to him.

Jesus did not say Satan did not have this authority to give him such power in earth, since Satan was the Lord of the Earth. Had Jesus taken the deal, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated; rich and powerful and able to subdue all the enemies of Israel. But by refusing, Jesus created political problems for Satan's authority, who, at that time, was still powerful in heaven.

Revelations 12; And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.8 But Satan was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Jesus takes over the job of Satan and the old dispensation ends.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus takes over the job of Satan and the old dispensation ends.

Wowowow. You heard it here first.

 

[ChristineM]

what is "i.e.one god"?

That's what the bible says jesus was teaching "one god".

 

[rubi]

We've had a lot great people come through here, and I've learned a lot from them.

שיר המעלות לדוד הנה מה־טוב ומה־נעים שבת אחים גם־יחד׃
A Song of Maalot of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

It's literally true. Unity! Am Yisrael Chai!

there is a lot of commentary about that in Hasidut. the main idea that is being discussed is explaining the depth of the phrase. and it is true that a society's strength is when as people sit together as brothers. This is the main reason that Islam failed in its goal to cancel triable culture in the Arab nation. This is something Westerners conceive wrong, they think that if they are a nation, so do they. this is a misconception. The Arab culture is tribal and we see this all the time in Israel and the American army saw it when they tried to train Iraqis. One platoon fired at another platoon. And turned out that two tribes wanted to be in the police force.

there was another thing I wanted to say I think that if the Romans wanted to say that Crist was the Messiah, they didn't have to go further and say that he was also the biological son of God. however, if they wanted to say that he is the biological son of God, they needed to say that he is the Messiah, because of Isaiah 14:7.

also, I think that the main ideological difference between Christianity and Judaism is whether the redemption is general to the whole nature or is it for the believer alone.

 

[rubi]

Before Christ began his ministry he went to the desert to pray and fast. During his fast he was visited by Satan, who among other things, offered Jesus all the power and wealth of the kingdoms of the Earth, if Jesus would serve him.

Mathew 4;1 Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain and he showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence and he said to him, “All these I shall give to you if you will prostrate yourself and worship me.” At this, Jesus said to him, “Get away Satan! It is written: The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.” Then the devil left him, and behold angels came and ministered to him.

Jesus did not say Satan did not have this authority to give him such power in earth, since Satan was the Lord of the Earth. Had Jesus taken the deal, he would have become the Messiah who was anticipated; rich and powerful and able to subdue all the enemies of Israel. But by refusing, Jesus created political problems for Satan's authority, who, at that time, was still powerful in heaven.

Revelations 12; And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.8 But Satan was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Jesus takes over the job of Satan and the old dispensation ends.

I don't understand. you are talking about Christ as if he is not the son of God. otherwise, how did satan approach with the most ridiculous offer, being the biological son of God. in your perspective, did he know that he is the biological son of God?
I see Christians speak in Christian terms and I think that the only reason that Christians believe in it is because they grew into it. to me, it is totally foreign. and as I said if you would speak Hebrew, you would understand

 

[Subduction Zone]

Christ is not a surname.

Wait, are you saying that his middle initial is not "H"?

 

[rubi]

~confused~ isn't missionary work in Israel illegal?



The Black Hebrew Israelites do that. Have you run into them?



wow, what an amazing experience it must be living there. Although, If I may, I **think** but I'm not sure... posting those videos anywhere on any forum helps the missionary. I think google has bots that crawl the net and use those sorts of postings-and-linking to produce their suggestions.

I'm not going to watch those videos you posted. Maybe just delete them from your posts?

missionary is not illegal in Israel. they can't as a democratic state write the law. I wish they would as I can answer any argument they make. I personally don't want to, because I think atheism is a bigger problem, and would like to have some assistance with debating atheists.
the one who said there more versions of the Tanach was on the link from youtube. I have deleted it, by the way.
do you speak Hebrew?