If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[LuisDantas]

The Jesus of the Gospels reminds me of Plato's Socrates, in that he feels a lot like a fictional character written to illustrate and embody a certain message or stance.


I assume that there was never a historical Jesus as such, but the literary Jesus was probably based on people of the time who hoped to bring questioning and change to the practices of Judaism of the time.


Paul of Tarsus, of course, saw things a bit differently. Whether his intent diverged from those of the Gospels' writers and other early Christians and to which degree we may well never truly know.

 

[rubi]

I'm aware of the importance. But my Hebrew, sadly, is not good enough to read those books. Unless of course there is a good translation out there. Or they have it on the web somewhere.



Muhammad tried to dissolve the tribalism and failed is what you're saying? I think American Muslims have some good things happening. I think. The ahmadiya ( ? ) I think have some good things happening. It could be a localized problem?



I don't know the book of Romans, I basically avoid anything after Acts. I have virtually no tolerance for those books, if a person wants to discuss a specific chapter verse I will discuss it, but reading them is like... well... I'll skip saying what it's like for me.

Does the book of Romans make reference to Isa 7:14? I have no idea what's in there. And are you speaking about the claims the book of Romans makes? Or are you talking about the claims that missionaries make? Addressing those are, imo, two totally different issues.



Oh wow... I think that's true, that's in the mix, but there's a lot going on. Christianity has a lot in it. If I were to try to pick just 1 thing 1 principle, Christianity sees a problem that needs to be solved AND they want simple. And sometimes simple is good. What I've been saying is Judaism is a true middle path. That means evaluating everything on a case-by-base basis. It's a middle path where the opposing sides are brought together in each and every situation and considered. But that takes a lot of work. So, people don't like it.

Muhammad tried to dissolve the tribalism and failed.
what there are happens usually is there are Muslim immigrants who remember what it is like in their homeland, and they try to fit in and as long there are just a few of them it is OK. then the next generation comes close to Islam and grows so much hate for the hosting state. So, if you think these Muslim immigrants are OK, wait and see their siblings. this is already happening all over Europe today.
You misunderstood me. I didn't mean the book of Romans, I meant whoever edited the New Testament. they needed Christ to be the Messiah so that they'll be able to say he is God by changing Isaiah 14:7. without that, what evidence from the Tanach would Christianity, which was the authority in the Roman Empire, produce to support its claim?
I think that Christianity or Christians says redemption is personal, because how else would you explain that on one hand the messiah has come 2000 years ago and in another hand still there are wars, women give birth in a lot of pain, and the earth is cursed, etc'

 

[rubi]

"from his head to his beard,"

"an allegory and a figure, and [in the] words of the wise and their riddles, but the primary meaning of the song of ascents is that it was said regarding the Temple."

The beard... yes, I've read some things... about it

the beard mean divine mercy

 

[dybmh]

the beard mean divine mercy

I recal something a little different. Tikkunei Zohar, maybe? Not Chassidus, technically, I suppose.

 

[rubi]

The Jesus of the Gospels reminds me of Plato's Socrates, in that he feels a lot like a fictional character written to illustrate and embody a certain message or stance.


I assume that there was never a historical Jesus as such, but the literary Jesus was probably based on people of the time who hoped to bring questioning and change to the practices of Judaism of the time.


Paul of Tarsus, of course, saw things a bit differently. Whether his intent diverged from those of the Gospels' writers and other early Christians and to which degree we may well never truly know.

boa noite, from Israel. I have been in Sao Paulo a couple of years ago. love the language. it was very hard to find someone who speak English.
I've commented on that, why do you think he was unwanted in Rabbis' eyes? what was he saying that they disliked?

 

[rubi]

I recal something a little different. Tikkunei Zohar, maybe? Not Chassidus, technically, I suppose.

stay away from Kabala. this a secret theology in Judaism which is meant for Jews who studied and have very extensive knowledge in the"visible" part of Judaism as well as righteous characteristics. People who have learned it as the saint Rabbi Israel Abu-Hatsera, were seen mainly praying and reading psalms.
by the way, a Christian told me that he actually saw Christ, so I can't tell him he isn't God. I told him he saw a demon

 

[rubi]

If you don't believe Jesus was the Christ, why do you call him the Christ?

don't you call him Christ? isn't Christ short for Christian?
I believe I'm doing him a favor. as I don't believe that he was the messiah or God, I think he suffers when people call him in the name that reminds him what he did.

 

[Orbit]

don't you call him Christ? isn't Christ short for Christian?
I believe I'm doing him a favor. as I don't believe that he was the messiah or God, I think he suffers when people call him in the name that reminds him what he did.

No, "Christ" is not a name, it is a title, meaning "the annointed one", if I remember correctly.

 

[rubi]

Sounds like you're the same boat as most Christians (and people of every other worldview), then.

no, we don't. Jews who live in their own environment preserve their customs. christianity took our religion and modified it. so, now Christians throw Jewish terms but it makes no sense and the only reason it makes sense to them is because it was replayed to them so many times. for example the"human sacrifice" Christ is doing on a daily basis. It literally makes no sense. OMG, my head hurts when I hear about it.

 

[dybmh]

stay away from Kabala. this a secret theology in Judaism which is meant for Jews who studied and have very extensive knowledge in the"visible" part of Judaism as well as righteous characteristics. People who have learned it as the saint Rabbi Israel Abu-Hatsera, were seen mainly praying and reading psalms.
by the way, a Christian told me that he actually saw Christ, so I can't tell him he isn't God. I told him he saw a demon

Praying and psalms... that's what I do.

 

[rubi]

No, "Christ" is not a name, it is a title, meaning "the annointed one", if I remember correctly.

OK. I'll keep using that. but keep in mind, that I don't think so.

 

[LuisDantas]

boa noite, from Israel. I have been in Sao Paulo a couple of years ago. love the language. it was very hard to find someone who speak English.
I've commented on that, why do you think he was unwanted in Rabbis' eyes? what was he saying that they disliked?

Good Evening. It is indeed hard to find English speakers here in Brazil, unfortunately.

Going by the Gospels, Jesus was at least a bit of a nonconformist. For instance, he challenged expectations of observance of Shabat, to the point of explaining that it was more important to repel demons when the occasion arose IIRC.

That can't have been perceived as very respectful towards the traditions and the authority of Rabbis of the time. Arguably that was the point. It has been suggested that the Gospels might have been a precursor not so much of Christianity as separate creed, but of what would today be considered Reform Judaism.

 

[rubi]

Praying and psalms... that's what I do.

that is very good. God will bless you

 

[Kenny]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Not offended at all...

To directly answer the question, if he wasn't the Messiah, then basically our preaching is for nothing. Of course, that would run crossgrain to what he accepted as being.

Why that particular approach?

 

[dybmh]

you're my master

stay away from Kabala

Lolz... I went from master to disaster in the span of just a few hours... it's the story of my life.

מה נעוץ סופן בתחלתן ותחלתן בסופן

that is very good. God will bless you

Amen.

 

[rubi]

Good Evening. It is indeed hard to find English speakers here in Brazil, unfortunately.

Going by the Gospels, Jesus was at least a bit of a nonconformist. For instance, he challenged expectations of observance of Shabat, to the point of explaining that it was more important to repel demons when the occasion arose IIRC.

That can't have been perceived as very respectful towards the traditions and the authority of Rabbis of the time. Arguably that was the point. It has been suggested that the Gospels might have been a precursor not so much of Christianity as separate creed, but of what would today be considered Reform Judaism.

2023 years ago, our nation was 1330 years old!! so, naturally, through the years, there were a lot of people that challenged the Rabinic authority of their time. and each time God helped us to see his true word. This brings me to a topic that I want to say, God wants communication with us, that's why he sent prophets and that is why we make sacrifices. I forgot the other thing I wanted to say.

 

[rubi]

Lolz... I went from master to disaster in the span of just a few hours... it's the story of my life.

מה נעוץ סופן בתחלתן ותחלתן בסופן



Amen.

I've seen people who learned Kabala. Crazy.

 

[Kenny]

this is the link to the web page on youtube

View attachment 79645
they have this magical argument that pops out of the blue: Christ was the Messiah son of Josef and Christ is both him and Messiah son of David. I of course contradicted it and that was our last message

OK... but who is right? And why?

 

[rubi]

Not offended at all...

To directly answer the question, if he wasn't the Messiah, then basically our preaching is for nothing. Of course, that would run crossgrain to what he accepted as being.

Why that particular approach?

I had this discussion, and I was thinking about it. It is actually a question that Rabbi Tovia Singer is asked a lot by ex-Christians.

 

[rubi]

OK... but who is right? And why?

didn't you read the whole discussion? it is 13 comments and I think I wasn't defeated