If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Left Coast]

I see Christians speak in Christian terms and I think that the only reason that Christians believe in it is because they grew into it.

What religion did you grow up in?

 

[syo]

Lion food. Or snack.

 

[rubi]

Christ is not a surname.

As I don't believe he is any of the titles Christianity says he is, I believe he doesn't want to refer to him by the alternative name he gave himself. I believe I'm doing him a favor. I do believe that he is in heaven because in Judaism there is a maximum time someone goes to hell. 12 months.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

That is I think a generous view that they are to spread monotheism. There need be no orchestration at all for that to happen, so you seem to be giving them two things for nothing. Why and how would monotheism spread better with them rather than without? Monotheism is an idea and a popular one that spreads by itself. There are plenty of monotheists who don't do anything good as a result and live only for ourselves. It changes no one.

Let me point out something I think about about truth (such as the truth of monotheism). Truth does not result in action or in better behavior, because humans resist effort of all kinds: such as thinking. The opposite is true however. If someone makes an effort to be peaceful and loving, then they are willing to consider new ideas (such as monotheism) as well. It is not monotheism which spreads peace and love but the reverse. So the monotheism does nothing and is merely a rider. It is a sign not substance.

 

[rubi]

What religion did you grow up in?

Judaism. in Jewish environment

 

[Orbit]

missionary is not illegal in Israel. they can't as a democratic state write the law. I wish they would as I can answer any argument they make. I personally don't want to, because I think atheism is a bigger problem, and would like to have some assistance with debating atheists.
the one who said there more versions of the Tanach was on the link from youtube. I have deleted it, by the way.
do you speak Hebrew?

I am an agnostic atheist; I'd be happy to discuss anything with you.

 

[dybmh]

there is a lot of commentary about that in Hasidut. the main idea that is being discussed is explaining the depth of the phrase.

I'm aware of the importance. But my Hebrew, sadly, is not good enough to read those books. Unless of course there is a good translation out there. Or they have it on the web somewhere.

This is something Westerners conceive wrong, they think that if they are a nation, so do they. this is a misconception. The Arab culture is tribal and we see this all the time in Israel and the American army saw it when they tried to train Iraqis. One platoon fired at another platoon. And turned out that two tribes wanted to be in the police force.

Muhammad tried to dissolve the tribalism and failed is what you're saying? I think American Muslims have some good things happening. I think. The ahmadiya ( ? ) I think have some good things happening. It could be a localized problem?

there was another thing I wanted to say I think that if the Romans wanted to say that Crist was the Messiah, they didn't have to go further and say that he was also the biological son of God. however, if they wanted to say that he is the biological son of God, they needed to say that he is the Messiah, because of Isaiah 14:7.

I don't know the book of Romans, I basically avoid anything after Acts. I have virtually no tolerance for those books, if a person wants to discuss a specific chapter verse I will discuss it, but reading them is like... well... I'll skip saying what it's like for me.

Does the book of Romans make reference to Isa 7:14? I have no idea what's in there. And are you speaking about the claims the book of Romans makes? Or are you talking about the claims that missionaries make? Addressing those are, imo, two totally different issues.

also, I think that the main ideological difference between Christianity and Judaism is whether the redemption is general to the whole nature or is it for the believer alone.

Oh wow... I think that's true, that's in the mix, but there's a lot going on. Christianity has a lot in it. If I were to try to pick just 1 thing 1 principle, Christianity sees a problem that needs to be solved AND they want simple. And sometimes simple is good. What I've been saying is Judaism is a true middle path. That means evaluating everything on a case-by-base basis. It's a middle path where the opposing sides are brought together in each and every situation and considered. But that takes a lot of work. So, people don't like it.

 

[dybmh]

I think atheism is a bigger problem

 

[dybmh]

by the way.
do you speak Hebrew?

No, I'm ok with biblical Hebrew. I can befuddle my way through modern Hebrew written if I must. But spoken Hebrew on a video is way way outside of my capability.

 

[rubi]

That is I think a generous view that they are to spread monotheism. There need be no orchestration at all for that to happen, so you seem to be giving them two things for nothing. Why and how would monotheism spread better with them rather than without? Monotheism is an idea and a popular one that spreads by itself. There are plenty of monotheists who don't do anything good as a result and live only for ourselves. It changes no one.

Let me point out something I think about about truth (such as the truth of monotheism). Truth does not result in action or in better behavior, because humans resist effort of all kinds: such as thinking. The opposite is true however. If someone makes an effort to be peaceful and loving, then they are willing to consider new ideas (such as monotheism) as well. It is not monotheism which spreads peace and love but the reverse. So the monotheism does nothing and is merely a rider. It is a sign not substance.

think about it, two thousand years ago, Judaism was the only monotheist religion, in a very small part of the world. Then came Christianity under the Roman empire and the Romans spread monotheism, which brought some Arab guy named Muhammad and saw that he could tell everyone that he is a prophet (it took him a couple of years) and it would be unchallenged and he started to spread monotheism for the sake of power by the sword, like ISIS. until they did this only Jews were monotheists.

 

[rubi]

I am an agnostic atheist; I'd be happy to discuss anything with you.

I think that the only difference between us is whether Mount Sinai happened or not

 

[Orbit]

I think that the only difference between us is whether Mount Sinai happened or not

You mean Moses receiving the 10 commandments? I think it's an important cultural story, and central to the Jewish story. It explains the moral code of a people, and is a valuable story for that reason. Do I personally believe the story happened as written? I don't, but that doesn't mean it's not a valuable story.

 

[rubi]

I am an agnostic atheist; I'd be happy to discuss anything with you.

because if it didn't happen I may agree with you on a lot of things like evolution, the age of the world, extraterrestrial life, and so on. By the way on the last subject, I do think there is life on other planets, but not intelligent. And if Mount Sinai did happen, it means that God exists.
I have also something to say about parallel universes and time travel. I think that science ignores the option of God's existence. I'm not mad about that, but I think we should keep that in mind.

 

[Orbit]

because if it didn't happen I may agree with you on a lot of things like evolution, the age of the world, extraterrestrial life, and so on. By the way on the last subject, I do think there is life on other planets, but not intelligent. And if Mount Sinai did happen, it means that God exists.
I have also something to say about parallel universes and time travel. I think that science ignores the option of God's existence. I'm not mad about that, but I think we should keep that in mind.

I suppose my response is that I can't know if Mt. Sinai happened or not, hence my agnosticism. I don't think anyone else knows for sure, either, though they could take it on faith.

I see science as an empirical method for explaining the natural world. I don't tend to extend its influence to spiritual matters.

 

[dybmh]

I have also something to say about parallel universes and time travel.

 

[Left Coast]

Judaism. in Jewish environment

Sounds like you're the same boat as most Christians (and people of every other worldview), then.

 

[Kfox]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

If you don't believe Jesus was the Christ, why do you call him the Christ?

 

[rubi]

We've had a lot great people come through here, and I've learned a lot from them.

שיר המעלות לדוד הנה מה־טוב ומה־נעים שבת אחים גם־יחד׃
A Song of Maalot of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

It's literally true. Unity! Am Yisrael Chai!

1A song of ascents of David. Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers also to dwell together!

Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers also to dwell together: When the Holy One, blessed be He, will dwell in the Temple with Israel, who are called brothers and friends, and He too will be together with them.

2As the good oil on the head runs down upon the beard, the beard of Aaron, which runs down on the mouth of his garments.

As the good oil: with which Aaron the priest was anointed.

which runs down: from his head to his beard, to the mouth of his tunic, for the beard rests on the mouth of the tunic. So is the dew of Hermon, which is high, pleasant on the mountains of Zion. Just as the anointing oil is for greatness, so is the dew of Zion for glory and distinction for Israel. Just as the good oil is so, so is the dew of Hermon. Like this, so is that, like (Isa. 24:2): “as with the people, so with the priest.” Our Rabbis explained “for brothers to dwell” as cmemeoncerning Moses and Aaron, regarding unlawful use of the anointment oil, in tractate Horioth (12a) the entire psalm. But [there is], in words of Torah and post-Mosaic Scriptures, an allegory and a figure, and [in the] words of the wise and their riddles, but the primary meaning of the song of ascents is that it was said regarding the Temple.

3As the dew of Hermon which runs down on the mountains of Zion, for there the Lord commanded the blessing, life forever.

 

[dybmh]

1A song of ascents of David. Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers also to dwell together!

Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers also to dwell together: When the Holy One, blessed be He, will dwell in the Temple with Israel, who are called brothers and friends, and He too will be together with them.

2As the good oil on the head runs down upon the beard, the beard of Aaron, which runs down on the mouth of his garments.

As the good oil: with which Aaron the priest was anointed.

which runs down: from his head to his beard, to the mouth of his tunic, for the beard rests on the mouth of the tunic. So is the dew of Hermon, which is high, pleasant on the mountains of Zion. Just as the anointing oil is for greatness, so is the dew of Zion for glory and distinction for Israel. Just as the good oil is so, so is the dew of Hermon. Like this, so is that, like (Isa. 24:2): “as with the people, so with the priest.” Our Rabbis explained “for brothers to dwell” as cmemeoncerning Moses and Aaron, regarding unlawful use of the anointment oil, in tractate Horioth (12a) the entire psalm. But [there is], in words of Torah and post-Mosaic Scriptures, an allegory and a figure, and [in the] words of the wise and their riddles, but the primary meaning of the song of ascents is that it was said regarding the Temple.

3As the dew of Hermon which runs down on the mountains of Zion, for there the Lord commanded the blessing, life forever.

"from his head to his beard,"

"an allegory and a figure, and [in the] words of the wise and their riddles, but the primary meaning of the song of ascents is that it was said regarding the Temple."

The beard... yes, I've read some things... about it

 

[dybmh]

Sounds like you're the same boat as most Christians (and people of every other worldview), then.

What does that mean? Didn't you want to know what their background was?