If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Kenny]

Genesis 24:43​

43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

Here she is a virgin

Song of Solomon 1:3​

3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

Here they are virgins

Song of Solomon 6:8​

8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

And the other 4 can be understood as virgins without loosing its significance.

All this is to say that it could be translated as a maid that has retained her virginity.

 

[Kenny]

I want to answer. but first I need to know things. how was it revealed that Mary gave birth while being a virgin? for how long Josef and Mary were married. or they were about to get married?

According to our books, it was reveal by an angel and assumed to be Gabriel.
It does not record when they got engaged to be married. Maybe the matchmaker made it? So I can't answer specifically when they were engaged. What we do know that marriage is consummated with the marriage bed that did not happen until after the birth of Yeshua.

 

[rosends]

Exactly. Generally speaking it is only referred to one who is not yet married. What we do know is that the Hebraic experts translated it as virgin in the Septuagint which was widely used in the time of Jesus. Apparently they had a different viewpoint of its meaning than today's modern understanding.

Using the Septuagint on the prophets is a bad idea as they are not reliable (and not the subject of the "70 sages" in the story).
Some reading

Why was the translation considered a tragedy if it was already translated into 70 languages?

I just read in Parashat ki tavo that the Torah was translated into 70 languages and written on giant stones, yet the Talmud says the translation of the Torah to Greek many years later was considere...

judaism.stackexchange.com

the comment here Bible study questions - Tanach - Septuagint - Din - Ask the Rabbi

The cobbled together product of translation on the writings after the 5 books is not sourced in any "Hebraic" experts from within Judaism. I can get more info about that when I get home later.

 

[rosends]

Genesis 24:43​

43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

Here she is a virgin

No, here your translation has her as "virgin."
Here is another translation -- "behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that the maid who comes forth to draw, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;"
and another, "Behold, I am standing by the water fountain. When a maiden comes out to draw [water], I will say to her, 'Please, give me a little water to drink from your pitcher.'"
How would Eliezer know, by looking at a woman in the distance, whether she was a virgin?

Song of Solomon 1:3​

3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

Here they are virgins

What is the "Song of Solomon"? The fact that your translation calls it that speaks volumes...
try "Your ointments yield a sweet fragrance,
Your name is like finest oil—
Therefore do maidens love you."

or
"Because of the fragrance of your goodly oils, your name is 'oil poured forth.' Therefore, the maidens loved you."

In fact, the only people who discuss the word here as "virgin" are the biblical commentators who give deeper interpretation. Are you saying that you subscribe to the rabbinic interpretations?

Song of Solomon 6:8​

8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

And the other 4 can be understood as virgins without loosing its significance.

All this is to say that it could be translated as a maid that has retained her virginity.

"There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and innumerable maidens."
The same rabbinical voices here don't see the word as referring to virgins. Are they still the voices you want to rely on?

What you can choose to "understand" as, and what the word means are very different. This makes understanding liable to be driven by agenda, not a function of the meaning of the words.

 

[Kenny]

Using the Septuagint on the prophets is a bad idea as they are not reliable (and not the subject of the "70 sages" in the story).
Some reading

Why was the translation considered a tragedy if it was already translated into 70 languages?

I just read in Parashat ki tavo that the Torah was translated into 70 languages and written on giant stones, yet the Talmud says the translation of the Torah to Greek many years later was considere...

judaism.stackexchange.com

the comment here Bible study questions - Tanach - Septuagint - Din - Ask the Rabbi

The cobbled together product of translation on the writings after the 5 books is not sourced in any "Hebraic" experts from within Judaism. I can get more info about that when I get home later.

I find the statements and position more of an internal discussion. The reality is that it was widely used in Jesus times in the Synagogues which speaks differently from the positions that are stipulated in your post.

We even have discussions in the Christian faith too.

 

[Kenny]

No, here your translation has her as "virgin."
Here is another translation -- "behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that the maid who comes forth to draw, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;"
and another, "Behold, I am standing by the water fountain. When a maiden comes out to draw [water], I will say to her, 'Please, give me a little water to drink from your pitcher.'"
How would Eliezer know, by looking at a woman in the distance, whether she was a virgin?


What is the "Song of Solomon"? The fact that your translation calls it that speaks volumes...
try "Your ointments yield a sweet fragrance,
Your name is like finest oil—
Therefore do maidens love you."

or
"Because of the fragrance of your goodly oils, your name is 'oil poured forth.' Therefore, the maidens loved you."

In fact, the only people who discuss the word here as "virgin" are the biblical commentators who give deeper interpretation. Are you saying that you subscribe to the rabbinic interpretations?

"There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and innumerable maidens."
The same rabbinical voices here don't see the word as referring to virgins. Are they still the voices you want to rely on?

What you can choose to "understand" as, and what the word means are very different. This makes understanding liable to be driven by agenda, not a function of the meaning of the words.

Hmmm... define maiden.

 

[rosends]

I find the statements and position more of an internal discussion. The reality is that it was widely used in Jesus times in the Synagogues which speaks differently from the positions that are stipulated in your post.

We even have discussions in the Christian faith too.

You say that the "reality" was that it was widely used. I dispute that claim. What is the evidence that the Greek text of the prophets was widely used, let alone widely respected by the mainstream Jewish community?

 

[rosends]

Hmmm... define maiden.

how about

ARCHAIC
a girl or young woman, especially an unmarried one.
"two knights fought to win the hand of a fair maiden"

(dictionary.com has that definition for the noun, not as an archaic use)

 

[Kenny]

You say that the "reality" was that it was widely used. I dispute that claim. What is the evidence that the Greek text of the prophets was widely used, let alone widely respected by the mainstream Jewish community?

Complete transparency - I have misspoken.

Were they used in studying? Yes. But I cannot categorically say how much it was used... no.

Thank you for challenging my statement.

 

[Kenny]

how about

ARCHAIC
a girl or young woman, especially an unmarried one.
"two knights fought to win the hand of a fair maiden"

(dictionary.com has that definition for the noun, not as an archaic use)

Strong's Concordance
almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Definition: a young woman, a virgin
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
fem. of elem
Definition
a young woman, a virgin
NASB Translation
girl (1), maid (1), maiden (1), maidens (3), virgin (1).

​

Brown-Driver-Briggs
עַלְמָה noun feminine young woman (ripe sexually; maid or newly married); — ׳ע Genesis 24:43 (J), Exodus 2:8 (E), Proverbs 30:19; Isaiah 7:14; plural עֲלָמוֺת Psalm 68:26; Songs 1:3; Songs 6:8; עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת to (the voice of) young women, either literally, or of soprano or falsetto of boys: 1 Chronicles 15:20; Psalm 9:1 (read עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת לַבֵּן [for עַלמֿוּת לַבֵּן], 'voce virginea a pueris decantandum,' Thes), Psalm 46:1; Psalm 48:15 (read עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת [for עַלמֿוּת]; translated probably to Psalm 49:1).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
damsel, maid, virgin
Feminine of elem; a lass (as veiled or private) -- damsel, maid, virgin.

see HEBREW elem

Forms and Transliterations
בְּעַלְמָֽה׃ בעלמה׃ הָֽעַלְמָ֔ה הָֽעַלְמָה֙ הָעַלְמָ֗ה העלמה וַעֲלָמ֖וֹת ועלמות עֲ֝לָמ֗וֹת עֲלָמ֥וֹת עלמות ‘ă·lā·mō·wṯ ‘ălāmōwṯ alaMot bə‘almāh bə·‘al·māh bealMah hā‘almāh hā·‘al·māh haalMah vaalaMot wa‘ălāmōwṯ wa·‘ă·lā·mō·wṯ

 

[rosends]

Strong's Concordance
almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Definition: a young woman, a virgin
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
fem. of elem
Definition
a young woman, a virgin
NASB Translation
girl (1), maid (1), maiden (1), maidens (3), virgin (1).

​

Brown-Driver-Briggs
עַלְמָה noun feminine young woman (ripe sexually; maid or newly married); — ׳ע Genesis 24:43 (J), Exodus 2:8 (E), Proverbs 30:19; Isaiah 7:14; plural עֲלָמוֺת Psalm 68:26; Songs 1:3; Songs 6:8; עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת to (the voice of) young women, either literally, or of soprano or falsetto of boys: 1 Chronicles 15:20; Psalm 9:1 (read עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת לַבֵּן [for עַלמֿוּת לַבֵּן], 'voce virginea a pueris decantandum,' Thes), Psalm 46:1; Psalm 48:15 (read עַלעֲֿלָמוֺת [for עַלמֿוּת]; translated probably to Psalm 49:1).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
damsel, maid, virgin
Feminine of elem; a lass (as veiled or private) -- damsel, maid, virgin.

see HEBREW elem

Forms and Transliterations
בְּעַלְמָֽה׃ בעלמה׃ הָֽעַלְמָ֔ה הָֽעַלְמָה֙ הָעַלְמָ֗ה העלמה וַעֲלָמ֖וֹת ועלמות עֲ֝לָמ֗וֹת עֲלָמ֥וֹת עלמות ‘ă·lā·mō·wṯ ‘ălāmōwṯ alaMot bə‘almāh bə·‘al·māh bealMah hā‘almāh hā·‘al·māh haalMah vaalaMot wa‘ălāmōwṯ wa·‘ă·lā·mō·wṯ

Using Strong's and BDB are also not great, as each one is steeped in the uses of the word as per the KJV. Strong's is not a good lexicon and BDB is a cataloguing of words as the KJV translated them. But even the BDB doesn't say "virgin".

I would use Klein
עַלְמָה f.n. 1 marriageable girl, maiden, young woman. NH 2 miss. [f. of עֶלֶם ᴵ. cp. Syr. עְלַיְמֽתָא, Nab. עלימת, Ugar. glmt (= maiden).]

how about Jastrow
עַלְמָה . Ex. R. s. 1 , v. עָלַם II .—Pl. עֲלָמוֹת . Cant. R. to I, 3 חלים לפניו כע׳ they dance before him like maidens; Koh. R. to I, 11 . Y. Meg. II, 73ᵇ כאילין ע׳ , v. עֲלִימוּת ; a. e.

or

Morfix Dictionary | עַלְמָה באנגלית | פירוש עַלְמָה בעברית

עַלְמָה in English - Translation of עַלְמָה to English from Morfix dictionary, the leading online English Hebrew translation site, with audio pronunciation, inflections, synonyms, example sentences, Hebrew Nikud (punctuation), encyclopedia and more

www.morfix.co.il

 

[rosends]

the other info on the Septuagint which I alluded to is in this discussion (which has citations)

Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums-Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

Searchingjew, let's be honest. You didn't read that from Emmanuel Tov: Because he never said it. He never wrote it. You read and pasted that quote tha

www.tapatalk.com

 

[Kenny]

Using Strong's and BDB are also not great, as each one is steeped in the uses of the word as per the KJV. Strong's is not a good lexicon and BDB is a cataloguing of words as the KJV translated them. But even the BDB doesn't say "virgin".

I would use Klein
עַלְמָה f.n. 1 marriageable girl, maiden, young woman. NH 2 miss. [f. of עֶלֶם ᴵ. cp. Syr. עְלַיְמֽתָא, Nab. עלימת, Ugar. glmt (= maiden).]

how about Jastrow
עַלְמָה . Ex. R. s. 1 , v. עָלַם II .—Pl. עֲלָמוֹת . Cant. R. to I, 3 חלים לפניו כע׳ they dance before him like maidens; Koh. R. to I, 11 . Y. Meg. II, 73ᵇ כאילין ע׳ , v. עֲלִימוּת ; a. e.

or

Morfix Dictionary | עַלְמָה באנגלית | פירוש עַלְמָה בעברית

עַלְמָה in English - Translation of עַלְמָה to English from Morfix dictionary, the leading online English Hebrew translation site, with audio pronunciation, inflections, synonyms, example sentences, Hebrew Nikud (punctuation), encyclopedia and more

www.morfix.co.il

All of them basically say the same thing... a virgin that is of marriageable age

 

[metis]

All of them basically say the same thing... a virgin that is of marriageable age

"Virgin" means young maiden, but then young maidens generally were virgins-- at least back then. Nowadays, you may have to do a lot of searching.

 

[rosends]

All of them basically say the same thing... a virgin that is of marriageable age

They don't all say "virgin" and that's therefore not basically the same thing.

 

[metis]

"Virgin" means young maiden, but then young maidens generally were virgins

My wording above is awkward, so what I was trying to say is that what shows up as "Virgin" is really an assumption, thus not a direct translation. In the Catholic Bibles I have, it shows up as "young maiden". The belief by the Church that it is a reference to Mary being a virgin is an interpretation based on tradition.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Using Strong's and BDB are also not great, as each one is steeped in the uses of the word as per the KJV. Strong's is not a good lexicon and BDB is a cataloguing of words as the KJV translated them. But even the BDB doesn't say "virgin".

I would use Klein
עַלְמָה f.n. 1 marriageable girl, maiden, young woman. NH 2 miss. [f. of עֶלֶם ᴵ. cp. Syr. עְלַיְמֽתָא, Nab. עלימת, Ugar. glmt (= maiden).]

how about Jastrow
עַלְמָה . Ex. R. s. 1 , v. עָלַם II .—Pl. עֲלָמוֹת . Cant. R. to I, 3 חלים לפניו כע׳ they dance before him like maidens; Koh. R. to I, 11 . Y. Meg. II, 73ᵇ כאילין ע׳ , v. עֲלִימוּת ; a. e.

or

Morfix Dictionary | עַלְמָה באנגלית | פירוש עַלְמָה בעברית

עַלְמָה in English - Translation of עַלְמָה to English from Morfix dictionary, the leading online English Hebrew translation site, with audio pronunciation, inflections, synonyms, example sentences, Hebrew Nikud (punctuation), encyclopedia and more

www.morfix.co.il

Many Christians do not understand how Strong's is biased and uses a Christianity based interpretation of the Old Testament. It is rather well hidden circular reasoning.

 

[Subduction Zone]

All of them basically say the same thing... a virgin that is of marriageable age

No. A young woman. And read the whole thing in context. It is not about a future event. It is about an event happening at that time. And where was Jesus ever called "Manny" in the Bible? "Hey Manny, you should come fishing with us."

 

[rubi]

Yoma 9b reads כִּדְתַנְיָא: מִשֶּׁמֵּתוּ נְבִיאִים הָאַחֲרוֹנִים חַגַּי זְכַרְיָה וּמַלְאָכִי נִסְתַּלְּקָה רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל, וַעֲדַיִין הָיוּ מִשְׁתַּמְּשִׁין בְּבַת קוֹל.
formal propehcy ceased
Bava Basra 12a discusses the cessation of all forms of prophecy by the destruction of the temple, but that would just be the cessation after the period of substantial decline (in that, if you check the Ramban there, what is called "prophecy" is more like an inspired understanding of the right answer to a halachic issue -- אעפ"י שנטלה נבואת הנביאים שהוא המראה והחזון נבואת החכמים שהיא בדרך החכמה לא נטלה אלא יודעים האמת ברוח הקדש)
On 12b R' Yochanan's statement about imbeciles and children is shown but he is referring to after the destruction of the FIRST temple (see the Chiddushei Aggadot -- מיום שחרב בהמ"ק ראשון קאמר דבבית שני לא היו נביאים אלא בתחלת בנינו היו חגי זכריה ומלאכי) and the "prophecy" that children and imbeciles have is sourced quite differently ("אבל נבואת השוטים ותינוקות אינו אלא ע"י שד"). The two examples of "prophecy" on B"B 12b show the totally different nature of "prophecy" -- more like "wild prediction."
As to the question of what constitutes a "rabbi" there is much discussion. Classical smicha? Just being a teacher (rav umanhig)? Something else?

I don't remember which of the Rebbes of Habad said it, but he said that it is an old Hasidic faith to say that all the Rebbes of Habad are prophets. another source is in the book Tanya, the elder rebbe complained why Hasidim come to him with material issues, for it is a matter for prophets and not for rabbis. and still, he continued to answer material issues. it may explain why this Hasidic faith that all Habad's Rebbes were prophets, and I dare to say 'הבעש"ט והמגיד ממזריץ.
regarding the sources you brought, it may suggest that the level of prophecy was according to the prophet. what I'm saying is that there were prophets. also please take notice that for the first time in 2500 years, the Lubavitcher Rebbe was announced as a prophet.
I do think that the prophets would do ordination. after all part of their activity requires talking to the people and telling them the word of God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

To when do you date Zoroastrianism. Ditto Jewish monotheism?

In the Passover story there is a man (Moses) who can and may open the Ark of the Covenant, and his name reflects the names of Pharoahs of the 18th dynasty of Egypt, placing him (in my mind) sometime after one of those pharoahs. At the earliest it places him just before the 14th century or later. Most likely he is named after the most famous and bloodthirsty pharoah Thutmos III. For me this establishes the most generous time that could be the possible earliest beginning of Jewish monotheism where people acknowledge that they are monotheists. So the Zoroastrians only need to exist before 14th century BCE to be earlier than the Jews.

The encyclopedia Britannica says Zarathushtra is born anywhere in 2nd millennium BCE. That is: he is somewhere between 4000 and 5000 years old. There are definitely monotheist Zoroastrians in 1000BCE and sometime earlier. Here is where it becomes difficult: Zarathustra is consciously monotheist, but early Jews are part of a covenant and may not realize or accept that they are monotheists. Zoroastrians learn monotheism from preaching, but Jews may have come about it a different way. Did they learn it from a prophet named Moses? I'm not sure.

The date of the beginning of Jewish monotheism is difficult, because its possible Jews discover that they have (already) been practicing monotheism for centuries without realizing it is monotheism. Their devotion to their covenant reveals itself be theological. This covenant situation makes it difficult to put a finger upon when they become monotheists. When is their monotheism made official? If I read their scriptures I can read them two ways as theological or as legal. I can read things spoken by God as personification or as the words of a deity. When does monotheism begin for them?

The Babylonian Captivity occurs sometime in the 6th century BCE. Before that Jews may not be aware they are practicing monotheism. It is in Babylon that they must have encountered the belief in one God, so this is a time when they would definitely have been made aware of the concept of monotheism. It is soon after that Ezra compiles most of the bible.