If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Kenny]

הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי נִצָּב עַל-עֵין הַמָּיִם וְהָיָה הָעַלְמָה הַיֹּצֵאת לִשְׁאֹב וְאָמַרְתִּי אֵלֶיהָ הַשְׁקִינִי-נָא מְעַט-מַיִם מִכַּדֵּך


לְרֵיחַ שְׁמָנֶיךָ טוֹבִים שֶׁמֶן תּוּרַק שְׁמֶךָ עַל-כֵּן עֲלָמוֹת אֲהֵבוּךָ.

שִׁשִּׁים הֵמָּה מְלָכוֹת וּשְׁמֹנִים פִּילַגְשִׁים וַעֲלָמוֹת אֵין מִסְפָּר.

In the phrases you brought, it is written in Hebrew עלמה and the editors of the New Testament chose to write a virgin.
the source in genesis is inquired in Judaism. Genesis 24:16 " The woman was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever slept with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again." why would God say that no one slept with her? means, Rebekah was an anomaly among other girls there.
besides I think you're missing the point. it is Christianity that can't have עלמה not to be translated as a virgin because it says that the most solid connection (which is already debatable whether it is speaking about the Messiah or another savior) of the idea that Christ is God, is debatable. I mean, can anyone blame a jew at any point in history for translating a word for its literal meaning?

You are saying that Sarah was not a virgin? I think you need to understand context.

 

[Kenny]

From Sefaria

נֵּ֛ה אָנֹכִ֥י נִצָּ֖ב עַל־עֵ֣ין הַמָּ֑יִם וְהָיָ֤ה הָֽעַלְמָה֙ הַיֹּצֵ֣את לִשְׁאֹ֔ב וְאָמַרְתִּ֣י אֵלֶ֔יהָ הַשְׁקִֽינִי־נָ֥א מְעַט־מַ֖יִם מִכַּדֵּֽךְ׃

As I stand by the spring of water, let the young woman who comes out to draw and to whom I say, “Please, let me drink a little water from your jar,”​

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Bible

While I stand here at the spring, if I say to a young woman who comes out to draw water, ‘Please give me a little water from your jug,’​

The real question is this:​

From the New International Commentary on the Old Testament (NICOT)

while I am standing by a spring, let the young girl who comes out to draw water and to whom I say, "Please give me a sip of water from your jug,"​

Parenthetically, the NICOT commentary on verses 42-49 begins:

Again, the servant makes some minor changes from the initial description when he recounts his meeting with Rebekah. In the first telling she is called a virgin (b'tulah, v. 16). Here the servant calls her an 'almah, the young girl (v.43).​

At what point does persisting to mistranslate 'almah as virgin go beyond KJV-only willful ignorance and verge on deceit?

=======================

For what it's worth, the Sefaria / JPS rendering of verse 16 reads ...

וְהַֽנַּעֲרָ֗ טֹבַ֤ת מַרְאֶה֙ מְאֹ֔ד בְּתוּלָ֕ה וְאִ֖ישׁ לֹ֣א יְדָעָ֑הּ וַתֵּ֣רֶד הָעַ֔יְנָה וַתְּמַלֵּ֥א כַדָּ֖הּ וַתָּֽעַל׃
The maiden was very beautiful—[and] a virgin, no man having known her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar, and came up.

my point was simply the "young woman" or "maid" status is almost always, if not always, talking about a virgin that is of age of marriage. It hasn't been about if KJV translated it correctly.

 

[Psalm23]

SHABBAT SHALOM TO EVERYONE

Shabbat shalom to you as well.

 

[metis]

Catholic Church theology teaches the perpetual “sacrifice” of Jesus Christ.
Most Bible believing Christians believe Jesus Christ died “once for all” ( Hebrews 7:27; 9;12).

There's a supposed difference? Not really, such as when a person commits themselves to Christ. And Catholics are "Bible-believing Christians".

 

[InChrist]

There's a supposed difference? Not really, such as when a person commits themselves to Christ. And Catholics are "Bible-believing Christians".

Yes, there’s a difference. According, the the Bible Jesus Christ died on the cross paying the penalty for the sins of the world, then rose from the grave in victory over death ONCE for all, 2000 years or so ago (Hebrews 10:20).

I was raised in Catholicism and the RCC has added many doctrines and traditions that go beyond the Bible. The concept of transubstantiation, that the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ is literally present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist during Mass, is definitely outside the teaching and message of the Bible.

 

[viole]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

I think it was Satan. The master deceiver. Who else could have pulled that stunt?

In fact, Christianity has all characteristics of having been conceived by Satan to deceive into damnation as many people as possible. By making them believe God to have kids and stuff. Especially if we keep into account the amazing change of attitude between the God of the OT, and the God of the NT. From a God indulging in repetitive genocide, to a God who wants to forgive everyone. A bit like Putin magically turning into Mother Teresa. Which is kind of suspicious.

In fact, if I had been Satan, that is exactly what I would have done. Almost no effort to produce a huge impact.

I am not sure how Christians can possibly exclude that possibility.

Ciao

- viole

 

[rosends]

You are saying that Sarah was not a virgin? I think you need to understand context.

what does any of this have to do with Sarah?

 

[rubi]

Catholic Church theology teaches the perpetual “sacrifice” of Jesus Christ.
Most Bible believing Christians believe Jesus Christ died “once for all” ( Hebrews 7:27; 9;12).

as I was saying, it makes sense to you becuase you have grone into it and it was replayed to your ear over and over

 

[rubi]

I think it was Satan. The master deceiver. Who else could have pulled that stunt?

In fact, Christianity has all characteristics of having been conceived by Satan to deceive into damnation as many people as possible. By making them believe God to have kids and stuff. Especially if we keep into account the amazing change of attitude between the God of the OT, and the God of the NT. From a God indulging in repetitive genocide, to a God who wants to forgive everyone. A bit like Putin magically turning into Mother Teresa. Which is kind of suspicious.

In fact, if I had been Satan, that is exactly what I would have done. Almost no effort to produce a huge impact.

I am not sure how Christians can possibly exclude that possibility.

Ciao

- viole

though I believe Sattan has a role in deflecting everyone from the path of God's will, I do believe thatit can't be Christ himself.
1. I think that if was him there wasn't free will to his followers
2. it happened only once in the ancient testament
3. it is not that hard if you are charismatic and have will to get power and respect

 

[rubi]

You are saying that Sarah was not a virgin? I think you need to understand context.

God says that Rebekah was a virgin... unlike other girls in her surrounding. it means that the environment in the area was promiscuous. I can understand why you would say that the servant was asking God to deliver him a virgin young woman. but, what should he say if he wouldn't expect a young woman who is not a virgin? he still would ask for עלמה. you've asked for a source that suggests עלמה is not a virgin and I have given Proverbs 30:19 what do you think about that?

 

[InChrist]

as I was saying, it makes sense to you becuase you have grone into it and it was replayed to your ear over and over

Although I was raised Catholic and did have Catholic teachings replayed over and over as I grew up… NOW Catholic theology and the concept of Jesus Christ being present in the bread and wine during each mass does NOT make sense to me, in the light of the scriptures.

 

[InChrist]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Didn’t the apostles and first Jewish people who became followers of Jesus Christ understand Hebrew?

 

[viole]

though I believe Sattan has a role in deflecting everyone from the path of God's will, I do believe thatit can't be Christ himself.
1. I think that if was him there wasn't free will to his followers
2. it happened only once in the ancient testament
3. it is not that hard if you are charismatic and have will to get power and respect

The problem with Satan, is that when you invoke him, all the bets are off. And if you do not invoke him, then where does evil come from?

For sure that makes any belief system with Satan in it, possibly compromised.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

what does any of this have to do with Sarah?

Same word used in isaiah.

 

[Kenny]

God says that Rebekah was a virgin... unlike other girls in her surrounding. it means that the environment in the area was promiscuous. I can understand why you would say that the servant was asking God to deliver him a virgin young woman. but, what should he say if he wouldn't expect a young woman who is not a virgin? he still would ask for עלמה. you've asked for a source that suggests עלמה is not a virgin and I have given Proverbs 30:19 what do you think about that?

Every time the word of Isaiah is used, it is used in the context of a virgin ready for marriage. Prov. 30:19 can also be understood as the same while a man tries to take it away from here... the way of a snake. So your point is still mute.

Did God create Adam or was he a evolution of a single cell?

 

[rosends]

Same word used in isaiah.

Are you saying that the word "Almah" was used in reference to Sarah?

 

[Lekatt]

I have heard all kinds of discussions about who Jesus was, but that is not important. What is important is His message and teachings. Anyone who actually follows His teachings will find out how to live an abundant life. A life that transcends the problems and troubles and allows one to live in the physical, but not be of the physical. It is like stepping back from it all and understanding the presence of God in all people.

 

[metis]

Yes, there’s a difference. According, the the Bible Jesus Christ died on the cross paying the penalty for the sins of the world, then rose from the grave in victory over death ONCE for all, 2000 years or so ago (Hebrews 10:20).

I was raised in Catholicism and the RCC has added many doctrines and traditions that go beyond the Bible. The concept of transubstantiation, that the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ is literally present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist during Mass, is definitely outside the teaching and message of the Bible.

You actually didn't answer the question. Yes, there are some differences between Catholic and Protestant beliefs, and both have their arguments, but the issue of commitment is what we are dealing with here, and both can do that.

BTW, transubstantiation can and has been justified on biblical terms. Also, I was raised in a Protestant church and had thoughts about going into the ministry but left the church, but I didn't convert to Catholicism until over a decade later.

 

[Kenny]

Are you saying that the word "Almah" was used in reference to Sarah?

yes it was... would you like the reference?

 

[rosends]

yes it was... would you like the reference?

Yes please. I see the word first used in Gen 24:43 but Sarah died in 23:2.