If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[rubi]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

 

[Orbit]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

My personal view is that he was a Jewish spiritual teacher whose life story was heavily mythologized by his followers over the years.

 

[dybmh]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Welcome to RF.

My vote? If Jesus was not the messiah ( which is my postion ), he is a very powerful ideal. But like all ideals must be balanced with common sense.

 

[rubi]

My personal view is that he was a Jewish spiritual teacher whose life story was heavily mythologized by his followers over the years.

but what did he preach?
did he say to follow rabbis?
If he said He is the Messiah or God himself, then by Judaism, which was the law for 1360 years by then, he was a criminal and his punishment is death by the Judicial authority.
I didn't hear that he said any prophecy. Did he?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

Interesting formulation.

 

[rubi]

Interesting formulation.

how should I say it?

 

[Orbit]

All very good questions. He preached to love thy neighbor as thyself. In my view, that is his most important teaching. I don't recall him saying anything about rabbis. He didn't contradict those who said he was the son of God, but neither did he affirm it. He made pronouncements about the future, yes.

 

[rubi]

tell me, what do you think about my conclusion that if you don't speak Hebrew, it is impossible for one to know that christ isn't God or the Messiah?

 

[rubi]

so,

All very good questions. He preached to love thy neighbor as thyself. In my view, that is his most important teaching. I don't recall him saying anything about rabbis. He didn't contradict those who said he was the son of God, but neither did he affirm it. He made pronouncements about the future, yes.

was he killed for his teaching?

 

[Orbit]

tell me, what do you think about my conclusion that if you don't speak Hebrew, it is impossible for one to know that christ isn't God or the Messiah?

It is my understanding that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and that the Gospels were written in Greek. I would agree that it's impossible to know--not only about Jesus, but about God also--but I don't see what reading/speaking Hebrew has to do with that.

 

[Orbit]

so,

was he killed for his teaching?

My personal view is that he was probably crucified by Roman authorities, who charged him with claiming to be King of the Jews. Was it because of the content of his teachings directly? I don't think so; I think it was because he had many Jewish followers, who were evidently considering him to be a messiah, and Roman authorities saw that as a threat.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Interesting formulation.

how should I say it?

Christ is not a surname.

 

[dybmh]

If he said He is the Messiah or God himself, then by Judaism, which was the law for 1360 years by then, he was a criminal and his punishment is death by the Judicial authority.

Respectfully, the law is complicated. We would need a crime. Each crime is specific with specific criteria. We are having a debate in another thread about this. The crimes he is accused of in the gospels, let's just say, they don't really add up.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

tell me, what do you think about my conclusion that if you don't speak Hebrew, it is impossible for one to know that christ isn't God or the Messiah?

I think it's silly.

 

[dybmh]

how should I say it?

the physical person walking around would be "Jesus".

 

[dybmh]

tell me, what do you think about my conclusion that if you don't speak Hebrew, it is impossible for one to know that christ isn't God or the Messiah?

I would say it this way: "it is very difficult to unwind or untangle claims made by missionaries and preachers without knowing Hebrew."

 

[rubi]

It is my understanding that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and that the Gospels were written in Greek. I would agree that it's impossible to know--not only about Jesus, but about God also--but I don't see what reading/speaking Hebrew has to do with that.

the conversation on youtube was except Isaiah 14:7 is there any phrase that shows that the Messiah is the son of God? The reason that I asked this was that I saw that the Christian bible translates wrong the word "העלמה" as "a virgin" and as "the young woman". the answer I got is that it is the only considerable source, which means there was a deception by the people who edited the New Testament which as far as understand were the Romans, and since we know how important it was for them to make Christ God, it makes sense how they would stop at nothing to perfect their ability to have control over the people.

 

[dybmh]

so,

was he killed for his teaching?

I vote: no. According to the gospels, Jesus volunteered. Technically, it was God's will.

However, in truth, it is much more complicated than that. Even though something like this appears to be "absolute submission", there is also a rather strong ego-thing going on with Jesus in the gospels where he wants, desperately, to be known and remembered and acknowldged AS being submissive to God's will.

Paradoxes like this often occur when human emotions, motivations, and desires are expressed in the extreme. Extreme submission, is **willfull**.

And that's why I say it was Jesus who volunteered. Even if he commited crimes, the Sanhedrin did what they did because Jesus chose to behave in the extreme, in extreme defiance, he sacrificed himself. And that sacrifice is critical to the Christian narrative. But the Christian at the same time, may want to blame the Jews for what happened. You can't have it both ways.

But of course the story is what it is and no one really knows what happened.

 

[rubi]

I would say it this way: "it is very difficult to unwind or untangle claims made by missionaries and preachers without knowing Hebrew."

you're my master

 

[Orbit]

the conversation on youtube was except Isaiah 14:7 is there any phrase that shows that the Messiah is the son of God? The reason that I asked this was that I saw that the Christian bible translates wrong the word "העלמה" as "a virgin" and as "the young woman". the answer I got is that it is the only considerable source, which means there was a deception by the people who edited the New Testament which as far as understand were the Romans, and since we know how important it was for them to make Christ God, it makes sense how they would stop at nothing to perfect their ability to have control over the people.

I can see no logical reason that *Romans*, who worshipped their own gods, would want Jesus to be God.