Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
I already knew what you meant by "pointing to the moon". You don't have to tell me, nor should you have to keep pointing fingers at me.
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If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?
- Thread starter LegionOnomaMoi
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I already knew what you meant by "pointing to the moon". You don't have to tell me, nor should you have to keep pointing fingers at me.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Would The Buddha see such differences?
godnotgod
Thou art That
And is the perfection of wisdom, Enlightenment?
godnotgod
Thou art That
So your first post regarding this point was totally unnecessary. You knew I was referring to The Universe when I said 'pointing to the Moon'.
godnotgod
Thou art That
God stuttered.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Correct. empty does not mean nothing; nothing means nothing.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Nonsense. You have been exposed as a fraud, just admit it. Stop playing games.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Exactly. Sunyata demolishes your silly new-age nonsense.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Nonsense. You have nothing.
godnotgod
Thou art That
The Buddha definitely saw what he termed 'effervescence', which is the very reason he sought higher ground, that being what he finally achieved as 'Supreme Enlightenment', the highest potential of a human being. It is this Supreme Enlightenment that I am saying is the realization of Universal Consciousness.
references forthcoming...
godnotgod
Thou art That
Nah, don't think so.
So Enlightenment is a state of consciousness that is NOT self-view, then, 'self-view' being that state of awareness of the ordinary man.
What Enlightenment demolishes is self-view, such as that of yours.
What remains is no-self-view, or universal view, otherwise called 'Universal Consciousness', and it is from this POV that the Buddha was able to see into the true nature of things, which is now called The Heart Sutra.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
There is no 'I' that can have anything. As I said, nothing is nothing, let alone any such 'I'.
godnotgod
Thou art That
If that were true, that is to say, if this personal experience is a self-view, then there would be differences in interpretation from one observer to the next. But the Buddha is not describing personal view; he is stating what are universal principles as to the nature of things. IOW, what he is saying is that what is set forth in the Heart Sutra as true for you is also true for me. That is not a personal view. It is a universal one. On top of that, it is an awakening, as you state, but it is an awakening from one state of consciousness (ie conditioned awareness that is self-view), to one of unconditioned awareness, which is that of a universal nature, in which it is realized that the self is non-existent.
Zen would ask: 'who, or what, is it that is looking?' What we find is that this looking is Pure Consciousness itself, without a looker, and what the Hindus refer to as 'Brahman'. Then the Hindus go on to tell us that you are none other than Brahman, ie; 'Tat tvam asi'.
THERE IS NO EXPERIENCER OF THE EXPERIENCE. THERE IS ONLY THE EXPERIENCE ITSELF, AND YOU ARE IT.
"THOU ART THAT", and 'That' is the one true Reality, which Zen is pointing to as 'The Moon'
Nirvana is the dissolution of the seeker.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
About this "higher ground"...what does that indicate anyway? Well it indicates to me a duality ie: there must be a lower ground. The "highest potential" also seems to indicate another duality ie: the lowest potential. Even your notion of Realization seems to indicate another duality ie: the unrealized. Even your notion of Absolute Truth seems to indicate a duality ie: that which is false. Even your notion of Pure Consciousness seems to indicate a duality ie: something which is impure.
You see, duality is inescapable. The most important thing to rember out of all of this is that despite duality, everything is interconnected as one. So in essence...duality is onesness is duality is oneness is duality is oneness is duality is oneness...ad infinitum.
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Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Ahem....no.....conceptual language, when used as an expedient to explain that conceptual distinctions are a product of the dualistic mind is not the same thing as believing the conceptual distinctions are real....
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
As far as I'm concerned, Absolute Truth and Pure Consciousness are conceptual distinctions. They are ideas formed in the minds of men. You want absolute? Forget everything. Forget Absolute Truth, forget Pure Consciousness, forget Ultimate Reality, forget change, forget The Changeless. When all those concepts are gone, what are you left with? That's what I'm interested in. There are no labels for which it can be attached. That's all they are Ben...labels...distinctions...
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Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Of course...but a meditation practitioner in or near in that state of 'pure consciousness'....,would be seen by the profane or novice seeking knowledge about such a state as dumb ..or incoherent (heedless blurter in the following allegory)
http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang63.html
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Of course...but a meditation practitioner in or near in that state of 'pure consciousness'....,would be seen by the profane or novice seeking knowledge about such a state as dumb ..or incoherent (heedless blurter in the following allegory)
http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang63.html
Meditation can be useful up to a point...but then one realizes there is no such thing as a non-meditative, non-unified state. It is simply the natural state of the universe as a whole. It is at this point where the novice thinking the practictioner was dumb, or the practitioner thinking he was "near" both realize their own dumbness.
The master never needs to enter that state, because he has never left it to begin with.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Let us return to Plato's Cave:
If you, as a prisoner in Plato's Cave, had never seen the Sun, you would say that 'the Sun' is nothing more than an idea in the mind of man, and that the cave wall shadows are the true reality. 'Sun' is nothing more than a label. But upon seeing the Sun for the first time, you would then understand that all those names were but fingers pointing to the Moon, and not the Moon itself, which is exactly what Zen says. Now you would know to see the label in terms of Reality, rather than Reality in terms of labels.
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