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If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

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Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
the primary difference between your assessment and mine is that I see the limitless universe as consciousness while you see it as never ending change.
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All the evidence supports the latter view, because perpetual change is what we observe at all scales. There is no evidence to support your belief in "cosmic consciousness", which is essentially a religious belief, something similar to Brahman by the sounds of it.
You come across as a new-age Hindu actually.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
A personal view gives way to a universal view. that is the transformation of consciousness which takes place. otherwise, one would not be able to see what the Buddha saw, which the ordinary man via his personal view (ie; self-view) cannot see.
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That is NOT what the Heart Sutra says or means, you are again misreprenting Buddhist teachings to suit your personal agenda. Your theory looks more like Advaita Vedanta, I would suggest you look there if you want validation.

I don't know if you are familiar with the Phena Sutta, it looks like a precursor to the Heart Sutra, with the same focus on the aggregates of personal experience. Personally I think it gives a better feel for what is being pointed to:

"Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick
- this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
'pointing to the moon' is simply a metaphor for 'pointing to Reality'. The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation, so it is itself Reality, when seen without those filters. So when I say 'point to the Moon' I am saying 'point to The Universe'. OK?
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This is gobbledygook tautology. If you are referring to the universe then just say "universe". All your jargon buzz-words like "Reality" and "Absolute" are meaningless and superfluous, they are just beliefs which you impose - you might as well say "God".
 
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godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
Rick O'Shez said:
That is NOT what the Heart Sutra says or means, you are again misreprenting Buddhist teachings to suit your personal agenda. Your theory looks more like Advaita Vedanta, I would suggest you look there if you want validation.

I don't know if you are familiar with the Phena Sutta, it looks like a precursor to the Heart Sutra, with the same focus on the aggregates of personal experience. Personally I think it gives a better feel for what is being pointed to:

"Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick
- this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
Click to expand...

In order for those observations to be made, consciousness must undergo a radical change from a conditioned to an unconditioned state. that change is from a self-view to a universal one. there is no other way. the consciousness with which the buddha made his observations in the heart sutra is not that of the ordinary man. this should be obvious to anyone, and is why the buddha can be called The Buddha.
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
Rick O'Shez said:
This is gobbledygook tautology. If you are referring to the universe then just say "universe". All your jargon buzz-words like "Reality" and "Absolute" are meaningless and superfluous, they are just beliefs which you impose - you might as well say "God".
Click to expand...

oh, i would feel safe to say that Vivekenanda is just a tad bit smarter than the likes of you.

you are ignoring the content and flow of my statement.
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
In order for those observations to be made, consciousness must undergo a radical change from a conditioned to an unconditioned state. that change is from a self-view to a universal one. there is no other way. the consciousness with which the buddha made his observations in the heart sutra is not that of the ordinary man. this should be obvious to anyone, and is why the buddha can be called The Buddha.
Click to expand...

Again you are just making stuff up, your "universal consciousness" thingy is not a part of Buddhist teaching. The Heart Sutra explains that it is prajna ( wisdom ), which enables insight into sunyata, and prajna is a quality of mind.

I really wish you would STOP trying to twist Buddhist teachings to make them fit your new-age Hindu theory. You are trying to bang square pegs into round holes, and ending up with a horrible bodge.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
oh, i would feel safe to say that Vivekenanda is just a tad bit smarter than the likes of you.
you are ignoring the content and flow of my statement.
Click to expand...

Your statement is still gobbledygook, and it's revealing that you keep quoting a Hindu swami while claiming to a Zennist and meanwhile missing the point of the Heart Sutra. Either you are completely confused or not being honest. As I observed earlier, all your metaphysical new-age Hindu beliefs and speculations are diametrically opposed to the here-and-now simplicity of Zen practice.
 
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godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
Rick O'Shez said:
Your statement is still gobbledygook....

.
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It is clear as a bell.

'pointing to the moon' is simply a metaphor for 'pointing to Reality'. The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation, so it is itself Reality, when seen without those filters. So when I say 'point to the Moon' I am saying 'point to The Universe'.

What do you find confusing?
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
Rick O'Shez said:
Again you are just making stuff up, your "universal consciousness" thingy is not a part of Buddhist teaching. The Heart Sutra explains that it is prajna ( wisdom ), which enables insight into sunyata, and prajna is a quality of mind.

I really wish you would STOP trying to twist Buddhist teachings to try and make them fit your new-age Hindu theory. You clearly favour Hindu style beliefs, just be honest about it and stop pretending.
Click to expand...

Did the buddha make his observations with an enlightened mind or the ordinary mentality of most men?
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
godnotgod said:
Did the buddha make his observations with an enlightened mind or the ordinary mentality of most men?
Click to expand...

I just told you, he developed prajna, ie wisdom. That is why the Heart Sutra concludes with the prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom.

And for the umpteenth time your "universal consciousness" thingy is NOT a part of Buddhist teaching. In Buddhist teaching consciousness is always dependently arising, so it is empty, transient and insubstantial. This is clearly confirmed by the Heart Sutra, where all the aggregates are emptiness, not just form, this includes consciousness. So your ill-defined notions of "universal consciousness" and "cosmic consciousness" are simply not compatible with Buddhist teaching.

Accept that Buddhism and Hinduism teach different things and admit that you favour Hindu-style beliefs. Stop misrepresenting Buddhism to suit your personal agenda. Stop playing games.

And now, could we please get back to the topic? If you want to keep discussing your personal theories, maybe you could start a separate thread.
 
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idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
godnotgod said:
hmmm....i thought i had provided a link. anyway, here it is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/cbp2_f6.htm
Click to expand...
From the article.
If we investigate existence further, we realise that all existences are empty. This is the fundamental characteristic and reality of all existence. It is ultimate and absolute. But we should not think that empty means nothing. It implies the disentanglement from the worldly misunderstanding of the existence of self, identity, and the realisation of the absolute.
Click to expand...
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
idav said:
From the article.
Click to expand...

As a general observation it is better to look at the source text, rather than at commentaries. What is clear though is that sunyata does not mean nothingness, nor is it compatible with absolutes. Though as I said before, the Heart Sutra isn't making ontological statements, it's describing the personal experience of insight and awakening. So it doesn't "prove" anything.
What the Heart Sutra is really saying is this: "Look closely and honestly at your own experience - can you find anything that is permanent and substantial?"
Buddhism has been aptly described as the "science of the mind", it is everything to do with the investigation of personal experience, and nothing to do with beliefs and metaphysics.
 
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