If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Rick O'Shez]

Please drop such pretentious concepts as Zen school, Zen approach, Zen practice, and mindfulness practice.....nothing needs to be done....just be... being is all there is to it... There is a raft somewhere tho...

Sorry, but I think you are just mouthing platitudes. Have you practised in a Zen school yourself? If not, then I don't think you have anything useful to add.

 

[godnotgod]

It's increasingly clear that you have NO IDEA what Zen would ask. A real Zennist would not rabbit on about "Pure Consciousness" / "Universal Consciousness" / "Cosmic Consciousness". A real Zennist would not hold all these new-age pseudo-Hindu beliefs and preach about them like you do.
The here-and-now simplicity of Zen practice is diametrically opposed to...*snip-ee-pooh*...

blah blah blah and more crap from the stagnant backwaters....

So Zen is not about Universal Consciousness, eh? You don't really know what you are saying, Spiney. A few excepts re: Zen pointing to it are in order:


The document, here employed, in abbreviated form, presents the teaching of Hsi Yun, one of the Ch’an (or Zen) masters who lived about 840 A.D. His teaching is reported by P’ei Hsiu, an official and scholar who became a student under Hsi Yun. It gives a more or less sympathetic disclosure of Ch’an philosophy.
First it defends the doctrine with which we are now familiar, that universal mind alone is real. This result is then used to explain why one must abandon seeking for anything; universal mind is realized by the cessation of all seeking and by leaving behind the analytic discriminations it uses and trusts. This step is achieved in a flash of sudden awakening. [ie Satori]

The Master said to me: “All the Buddhas and all the sentient beings are nothing but the universal mind, besides which nothing exists. This mind, which has always existed, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green or yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things that exist or do not exist, nor can it be reckoned as being new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, but transcends all limits, measures, names, speech, and every method of treating it concretely. It is the substance you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void, which cannot be fathomed or measured. This universal mind alone is the Buddha and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings, but sentient beings are attached to particular forms and so seek for Buddhahood outside it. By their very seeking for it they produce a contrary effect of losing it, for that is using the Buddha to seek the Buddha and using the mind to grasp mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full kalpa, they will not be able to attain it. They do not know how to put a stop to their thoughts and forget their anxiety. The Buddha is directly before them, for this (universal) mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifested in the Buddha.
Only awake to the universal mind, and realize that there is nothing whatsoever to be attained. This is the real Buddha. The Buddha and all sentient beings are the universal mind and nothing else....

“The universal mind is no mind [in the ordinary sense of the word] and is completely detached from form. So it is with the Buddhas and sentient beings. If they (the latter) can only rid themselves of analytic thinking (mentation) they will have accomplished everything.

“The pure mind, the source of everything, shines on all with the brilliance of its own perfection, but the people of the world do not awake to it regarding only that which sees, hears, feels and knows as mind. Because their understanding is veiled by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowledge, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the original substance....
“When the people of the world listen for the Way, all the Buddhas proclaim the doctrine of universal mind.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Hsi Yun_Ultimate_Reality.html

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That is kind of a mouthfull and sounds a lot like something off of Star Trek, but it also seems like a fancy way of saying "interaction" or "interconnectivity".

Quite honestly I would just stick with your model, which is simple and observable.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So Zen is not about Universal Consciousness, eh?

No, it really isn't. Don't take my word for it though, go onto any Buddhist forum with your twaddle about "universal consciousness" and "cosmic consciousness", you will quickly be put straight.

"Zen" is derived from "Chan", which means meditation - that should give you a clue.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Quite honestly I would just stick with your model, which is simple and observable.

Exactly, why muddle it up with fancy words like Absolute This or Absolute That. It just seems too concocted and shady. Interaction and interconnectivity can be understood by anyone...even science accepts those terms. It doesn't, nor should it take a seer or mystic to comprehend.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That is kind of a mouthfull and sounds a lot like something off of Star Trek, but it also seems like a fancy way of saying "interaction" or "interconnectivity".

Yes it is universally interactive and interconnective...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Exactly, why muddle it up with fancy words like Absolute This or Absolute That. It just seems too concocted and shady. Interaction and interconnectivity can be understood by anyone. It doesn't, nor should it take a seer or mystic to comprehend.

Indeed, it is there to be seen, it is what all the observations support. No need to surround the present moment with a load of pretentious mystical twaddle.

Absolute Cosmic Ultimate Crap!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, it really isn't. Don't take my word for it though, go onto any Buddhist forum with your twaddle about "universal consciousness" and "cosmic consciousness", you will quickly be put straight.

"Zen" is derived from "Chan", which means meditation - that should give you a clue.

...and "Chan" is derived from the Sanskrit "Dhyan".. ...the real is forever on the other side of the concept..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...and "Chan" is derived from the Sanskrit "Dhyan"..

The point is that Zen is concerned with here and now practice, not accumulating a head full of beliefs or surrounding the present moment with a load of pretentious mystical twaddle.

Dropping Zen quotes at random into a discussion simply doesn't cut it, it's just posturing.

 

[godnotgod]

Godnotgod calls this "nothing", but you seem to be indicating that it is something. So perhaps it is that which is neither something, nor nothing at the same time? You guys may both disagree, but this halfway between something and nothingness I call interaction. Interaction is neither necessarily some-thing, nor is it necessarily no-thing. It is the inter-action/inter-connectivity that comprises the whole ocean (universe). That's how view it anyways.

"Four men...were having a discussion, saying, "Whoever
believes Nothingness to be the head, Life to be the backbone,
and Death to be the tail; whoever can know life, death, being,
and non-being all as one, shall be our friend." The four
looked at one another and smiled. And since they were in
complete agreement, they became fast friends."

Chuang-tzu: Inner Chapters

 

[godnotgod]

The point is that Zen is concerned with here and now practice, not accumulating a head full of beliefs or surrounding the present moment with a load of pretentious mystical twaddle.

If that is your understanding, why do you ramble on about it? We understand that the words are just symbols, and are not confusing them with Reality. What is your concern?

The 'here and now practice ' that is Zen leads to something, and that something is an experience of Universal Consciousness, in Zen called 'Satori'.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If that is your understanding, why do you ramble on about it? We understand that the words are just symbols, and are not confusing them with Reality. What is your concern?

My concern is your proliferation of pretentious proper nouns, all your "cosmic this" and "ultimate that", it's a load of nonsense, smoke and mirrors. It takes us further and further away from the simplicity of the present moment.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The point is that Zen is concerned with here and now practice, not accumulating a head full of beliefs or surrounding the present moment with a load of pretentious mystical twaddle.

For a Zen master you seem to have a lot to say....why aren't you in your cave instead of posting your conceptual opinions about Zen practice on an internet forum... Haha.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Yes it is universally interactive and interconnective...

Interaction and interconnectivity as a symbol for the "oneness" of the universe can be understood and realized by both the scientist and the mystic alike. I think that is powerful.

 

[godnotgod]

My concern is your proliferation of pretentious proper nouns, all your "cosmic this" and "ultimate that", it's a load of nonsense, smoke and mirrors. It takes us further and further away from the simplicity of the present moment.

So now you push the doctrine of the 'simplicity of the present moment', do you? Does that need to be whacked out of you as well as all of the other crap and nonsense you have stuffed up in your head about 'new age pseudo Hinduism' and such?

The simplicity of the present moment is none other than the universality of consciousness, and that is clear all the way through.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sorry, but I think you are just mouthing platitudes. Have you practised in a Zen school yourself? If not, then I don't think you have anything useful to add.

Yes...you know that Norman...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

For a Zen master you seem to have a lot to say....why aren't you in your cave instead of posting your conceptual opinions about Zen practice on an internet forum... Haha.

Eh? I'm not claiming to be a Zen master. However I do have solid experience of Zen practice, and I know what it looks like. It is certainly nothing to do with the pretentious posturing of another member here.

As I said, if you haven't practised in a Zen school yourself you really have nothing useful to add here. So have you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The simplicity of the present moment is none other than the universality of consciousness.

Nonsense. "Universality of consciousness" is just a belief you impose on the present moment. If you REALLY want to see the present moment you will have to stop imposing all your new-age beliefs on it.

Poor present moment, crushed by the weight of all your new-age, pseudo-Hindu, pseudo-science beliefs!

 

[godnotgod]

Interaction and interconnectivity as a symbol for the "oneness" of the universe can be understood and realized by both the scientist and the mystic alike. I think that is powerful.

The scientist wants to know what all the interaction is about, while the mystic wants to see what is behind it, where nary a peep can be found.

 

[Runewolf1973]

My concern is your proliferation of pretentious proper nouns, all your "cosmic this" and "ultimate that", it's a load of nonsense, smoke and mirrors. It takes us further and further away from the simplicity of the present moment.

Using such terms is actually counterproductive in my opinion. I think it is better to use terms that everyone can understand or accept and even relate to on an everyday basis.