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if God can do anything, can he lie?

Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
EtuMalku said:
No . . . sorry


Free in what way and who is "they" ?
What does his "beautiful names" have to do with any of this?

The Quran does not name this tree and it is always referred to as "the tree". Muslims believe that when God created Adam and Eve, He told them that they could enjoy everything in the Garden but this tree, and so, Satan appeared to them and told them that the only reason God forbade them to eat from that tree is that they would become Angels or become immortals.

The Quran takes an older story / myth and revises it . . . that's all
Click to expand...

All human beings have the tree or tree of knowledge/garden. It's the human brain, mind, and spinal cord. It's mythology exoterically but not consciously and metaphysically. Whole story is about conscious separation.

Adam: conscious mind.
Eve: subconscious mind.
Snake: ego/unconscious mind.
 
cambridge79

cambridge79

Active Member
Unification said:
All human beings have the tree or tree of knowledge/garden. It's the human brain, mind, and spinal cord. It's mythology exoterically but not consciously and metaphysically. Whole story is about conscious separation.

Adam: conscious mind.
Eve: subconscious mind.
Snake: ego/unconscious mind.
Click to expand...

i think you're reading too much into it. At the time when adam myth was born we weren't even aware of what the brain was there for. The egyptians when embalming their deaths simply throw it away while organs they considered more important like the liver and the heart were kept.
it looks more like a myth to keep them into obedience ( knowledge id bad, obedience to god is good! ) and put there to justify why the world is corrupt and not perfect even if he is directly created by god. Also it shows the patriarcal structure of those societies ( god creates the male, the woman is derived from the male, so it's inferior. The woman is the reason of the fall from grace ).
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
God cannot lie, simply because He 'created' reality itself. He can however deceive His creation, by withholding information and thereby allowing false assumptions about His 'created' reality.
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Unification said:
All human beings have the tree or tree of knowledge/garden. It's the human brain, mind, and spinal cord. It's mythology exoterically but not consciously and metaphysically. Whole story is about conscious separation.

Adam: conscious mind.
Eve: subconscious mind.
Snake: ego/unconscious mind.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between unconscious and subconscious mind?

The Serpent has always represented the divine force of Creation that is able to carry out the idea of Creation. The Serpent sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of Creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to a god.

‑from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth
TOT (3:4‑5) "it reveals truth only when one reads it in reverse, recognizing that God is actually the villain, and the Serpent the holy one"
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Sleeppy said:
God cannot lie, simply because He 'created' reality itself. He can however deceive His creation, by withholding information and thereby allowing false assumptions about His 'created' reality.
Click to expand...
Why would he do that?
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
DawudTalut said:
Peace be on you.
1=Can you both please not think, maybe verses you quoted had some meanings or translations were not right or they were not right instead of calling God as lier?
Click to expand...
But if we can't trust these verses to be correct how can you trust any other verse to be right? Of course if they have some other meaning then why haven't they been corrected? Why has god let them remain as is and let people be deceived by reading them incorrectly? For hundreds of years millions of people have lived and died with the idea that god is a liar because this is what the Bible says he is.

FearGod said:
Was God serious with Abraham or he was lying for a purpose ?
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Well Abraham took him seriously, so he was buying into god's lie. And of course god was lying for a purpose. Purposes lie behind all lies. Ever see anyone lie for no reason whatsoever?
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
Subconscious is those things we are aware of but do not have our attention.

Unconscious things are those things we are not aware of.

Mind is us aware.
Click to expand...

Yes .. and Almighty God is closer to us than our jugular vein!

Can God lie? Yes .. of course.
Would God lie? Of course not!
 
Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Sleeppy said:
God cannot lie, simply because He 'created' reality itself. He can however deceive His creation, by withholding information and thereby allowing false assumptions about His 'created' reality.
Click to expand...
Considering that reality itself is an illusion (hologram), it's all a lie, even what we think is true.
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
cambridge79 said:
i think you're reading too much into it. At the time when adam myth was born we weren't even aware of what the brain was there for. The egyptians when embalming their deaths simply throw it away while organs they considered more important like the liver and the heart were kept.
it looks more like a myth to keep them into obedience ( knowledge id bad, obedience to god is good! ) and put there to justify why the world is corrupt and not perfect even if he is directly created by god. Also it shows the patriarcal structure of those societies ( god creates the male, the woman is derived from the male, so it's inferior. The woman is the reason of the fall from grace ).
Click to expand...

The problem is not with knowledge, the problem is wicked knowledge and that wicked knowledge put to use.

When a human is dwelling on wicked things, they are impregnating their subconscious mind with corrupt mind babies(knowledge).

The subconscious mind was separated/derived from the conscious mind. The subconscious mind is inferior to the conscious mind.
 
DawudTalut

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
cambridge79 said:
i've already told, and i think is not a concept so hard to understand, that if you assume that god can lie...
Click to expand...
Peace be on you friend.
I think you missed by chance the last two lines of post 13. It is not scripture. To my understanding, purity is vital in concept of idea of God. For your ease, I quote myself:

From post 13
If you line of doubt is further streched, one may ask also, Can God kill himself and so on......
The purity is a vital concept in Godhead. God does not lie because God is Holy concept.
Click to expand...
No verse is used here.

cambridge79 said:
..... quoting the scriptures to prove he can not is pointless because in the scripture would be basically him telling "i can't lie".
if i told you that "i can't lie" and i'm in fact a liar, than when i told you "i can't lie" i was in fact lying.
Click to expand...
answered above without scripture

=======

cambridge79 said:
Also, looking at the bits of kuran you quoted, if Holy Allah is "free from what they attribute to him", i assume he is also free from what YOU attribute to him ( and you attribute to him that he can not lie. ).
Now if he is free he can do what he wants, including lie if he thinks is the right thing to do.
Also if he is "the wise" he is probably wise enough to know when is better to tell the thruth and when is better to lie.
It actually look like that scripture you quoted me is proving my point more than yours.
Click to expand...
Some more verses with Arabic words عما يصفون [i.e. from what they attribute] they appeared in [37:160] which you used [picked from my quote]

[6:101] And they hold the Jinn to be partners with Allah, although He created them; and they falsely ascribe to Him sons and daughters without any knowledge. Holy is He and exalted far above what they attribute to Him!

[[[[According to Quran, making partners, idols, relatives etc with God is equal to lie =
[29:18] ‘You only worship idols beside Allah, and you forge a lie. Those whom you worship beside Allah have no power to provide sustenance for you. Then seek sustenance from Allah, and worship Him, and be grateful to Him. Unto Him will you be brought back.]]]]


[21:23] If there had been in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside Allah, then surely both would have gone to ruin. Glorified then be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, above what they attribute.

[23:92] Allah has not taken unto Himself any son, nor is there any other God along with Him; in that case each god would have taken away what he had created, and some of them would surely have dominated over others. Glorified be Allah above all that which they attribute to Him!

The red colour can show what does "free from what they attribute to Him" really means!....obviously what you are trying is not working in your favour.


Thus in [37:160] "Holy is Allah and free from what they attribute to Him".
the words "free from what they attribute to Him." means free from negative things, and lie a ultimate negative thing.

Furthermore
God speaks truth,
God asks that truth should be spoken,
When truth comes false go away.

[4:123] But as to those who believe and do good works, We will admit them into Gardens, beneath which streams flow, abiding therein for ever. It is Allah’s unfailing promise; and who can be more truthful than Allah in word?

Lie is something which God does not like to be spoken:
[2:43] And confound not truth with falsehood nor hide the truth, knowingly.

[17:82] And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast.

 
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