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If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?

Koldo

Outstanding Member
They do, indeed. And you could eliminate them all and still have suffering. Suffering is not dependent on any of them.

I only mentioned two items of the 'suffering' list.
Why would you think that suffering is dependant on them solely?

That was my point. A world free of "things I don't like" will not necessarily eliminate suffering.

Correct, as it would end up eliminating things that other people do like.
It would be necessary to deal with the group "suffering" directly.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One thing I find interesting about debates concerning the PoE is how theist positions tend to be flexible.

On one hand, the argument via evil/imperfection/suffering is a purely reactionary claim. It wouldn't exist unless there existed people claiming that the world is perfect, or that god is perfect (and often more detail is given, like perfectly powerful, perfectly loving, etc). This sort of argument is not usually put forth to imply that god is doing a poor job, but instead to contest the notion that a powerful and loving god even exists.

But then, when the PoE is put forth, things sometimes become more flexible. Statements implying perfection is relative, or that points of view matter, or that perfection isn't a precise term, and so forth, start being said by theists. But considering the fact that the PoE is a reactionary argument to those suggesting there is a perfect god and a perfect world, it makes little sense to try to add flexibility to the definition- because it applies similarly to the initial claim of a perfect god, if not refutes it outright.

If theists said they believe in a god that is just trying to figure things out as it goes along like everyone else, or that the world has some life force that isn't necessarily perfect, then these arguments wouldn't exist in the first place.

So as far as I can tell, there's one of three things happening in threads like this one. Often a combination of all three. Either:

A) Theists are putting forward a theodicy as their defense against the PoE (the most straightforward approach).

B) Theists are indeed agreeing with the argument that god is perfect, but go on the defensive when this claim is contested, and then attempt to use arguments or flexible positions which they don't realize apply equally (and ultimately, only) to their only claims.

C) More concise and thoughtful theists are attempting to sort out the imprecise claims made by their less sophisticated theist counterparts. It's a pretty bold and apparently imprecise thing to claim that there exists a perfect god in the first place. Then when this claim is contested, it seems that sometimes a different brand of theists steps into defend it (because the initial lot usually cannot) with discussions on whether perfection is even a meaningful concept. One would wonder why people would defend arguments made by others that they haven't made themselves and that they apparently don't even agree with.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing I find interesting about debates concerning the PoE is how theist positions tend to be flexible.

On one hand, the argument via evil/imperfection/suffering is a purely reactionary claim. It wouldn't exist unless there existed people claiming that the world is perfect, or that god is perfect (and often more detail is given, like perfectly powerful, perfectly loving, etc). This sort of argument is not usually put forth to imply that god is doing a poor job, but instead to contest the notion that a powerful and loving god even exists.

But then, when the PoE is put forth, things sometimes become more flexible. Statements implying perfection is relative, or that points of view matter, or that perfection isn't a precise term, and so forth, start being said by theists. But considering the fact that the PoE is a reactionary argument to those suggesting there is a perfect god and a perfect world, it makes little sense to try to add flexibility to the definition- because it applies similarly to the initial claim of a perfect god, if not refutes it outright.

If theists said they believe in a god that is just trying to figure things out as it goes along like everyone else, or that the world has some life force that isn't necessarily perfect, then these arguments wouldn't exist in the first place.

So as far as I can tell, there's one of three things happening in threads like this one. Either:

A) Theists are putting forward a theodicy as their defense against the PoE (the most straightforward approach).

B) Theists are indeed agreeing with the argument that god is perfect, but go on the defensive when this claim is contested, and then attempt to use arguments or flexible positions which they don't realize apply equally (and ultimately, only) to their only claims.

C) More concise and thoughtful theists are attempting to sort out the imprecise claims made by their less sophisticated theist counterparts. It's a pretty bold and apparently imprecise thing to claim that there exists a perfect god in the first place. Then when this claim is contested, it seems that sometimes a different brand of theists steps into defend it (because the initial lot usually cannot) with discussions on whether perfection is even a meaningful concept. One would wonder why people would defend arguments made by others that they haven't made themselves and that they apparently don't even agree with.

Well, just speaking for myself: because you responded to my post? :shrug:
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, just speaking for myself: because you responded to my post? :shrug:
Yes, but your post was a response to the OP.

I began writing my latest post before you posted your latest reply several minutes ago- it was a reference to the thread as a whole including your posts rather than specifically your posts.
 

Bismillah

Submit
On one hand, the argument via evil/imperfection/suffering is a purely reactionary claim. It wouldn't exist unless there existed people claiming that the world is perfect, or that god is perfect
Why should the idea of a transcendent deity necessitate the idea that the world must also be perfect. Logically if that were the case and creation was inherently perfect, then they themselves would encapsulate the claim to divinity. It is a necessary contrast that in opposition to Allah mankind itself is always inferior and always fallible.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why should the idea of a transcendent deity necessitate the idea that the world must also be perfect. Logically if that were the case and creation was inherently perfect, then they themselves would encapsulate the claim to divinity. It is a necessary contrast that in opposition to Allah mankind itself is always inferior and always fallible.
Theists that argue that god is perfect but that the world is not are almost always coupling this assertion with a theodicy.

The majority of theodicies are scientifically inaccurate or otherwise able to be shown false, while a minority of theodices are more interesting and worth discussing, but usually phrased in non-falsifiable ways.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Theists that argue that god is perfect but that the world is not
There is no reason why the existence of Allah is invalidated by the existence of evil.
he majority of theodicies are scientifically inaccurate or otherwise able to be shown false
I fail to see how the tools of man can be equipped to deal with even the most base of theological foundations.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, but your post was a response to the OP.

The OP says this: "If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?"

My answer is this:

1) because based on the OP's method of determining imperfection, perfection is a logical impossibility

2) if we decide that a better definition of "perfect" is "something that couldn't possibly be improved upon" then the world actually is perfect.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because if you had been born into that world, your sensibilities would be shaped by that world. I think it's reasonable to speculate that people who are born into 2 different worlds with 2 different sets of potentialities would develop 2 completely different sets of standards.

Put it this way: if you were born into a world where the worst thing that could happen to anyone would be to stub their toe, do you really think you would be walking around going "Isn't it great there are no mass extinction events in our world? Isn't it wonderful that there's no such things as diseases? or mental disorders? or genetic defects? or insanity?"

Of course you wouldn't. If those things were unknown in your world they wouldn't play any role at all in whatever standards you set to determine what is and isn't a satisfactory existence. No more than you're likely to walk around in this world thinking "Gee, isn't it great that there are no such thing as 5000 lb radio active spiders in our world?"

No matter what world we can envision, it's reasonable to predict that your set of standards would reflect the conditions of that world.
This is mixing up knowledge with realization. Knowledge of other worlds is a tool to explain why some possible worlds are better than others, but knowledge doesn't have to directly play a role in why that world is better. It's only a tool for external philosophical beings to make the comparison. Beings in a hellish realm, and beings in a heavenly realm, would not have to know of each others existence for their levels of fulfillment and suffering to be different from each other (although adding the knowledge of the heavenly realm to the hellish realm would probably add insult to injury).

If, in a world where the worst thing that can happen is a stubbed toe, someone puts forth the PoE and suggests that a powerful and loving god wouldn't allow this to happen, they might have an initial point, but a proper response would be, "look, I can recover in 5 minutes from a stubbed toe. The highest pleasure is so much larger in magnitude than this suffering." and it would render the argument weak.

But in this world, where unbearable agony or lifelong illness are among the worst possible things, the same defense can't be said.

Adjusting to the environment is only a partial thing. People can adjust to an extent, and that's because our bodies are rather flexible due to our growing in this world. For instance, if someone joins a kickboxing club for the first time and I have to fight her, chances are, she'll be a pansy. But after a few months of rigorous training, she'll develop cardiovascular conditioning, muscular strength and endurance, and learn how to actually take a hit and hit back harder. This does not mean, however, that the scales between suffering and fulfillment are wholly relative (see example below).

"Reason" has nothing to do with it. We're talking about human psychology more than anything here.

Most people don't live in the world you describe above. For most people, those things aren't realities, just ideas. Most people living under the conditions you describe above would no doubt consider the world we live in here in a developed country a "less imperfect" world. Yet the people living here don't usually equate that with perfection.

If we decide to consider the average living conditions of the average, middle class to upper-middle class US citizen the starting point and work from there, my theory still holds: most of us don't consider the world we live in a perfect world even when compared with 3rd world or war torn regions.

By the same token, using your formula of substituting some hypothetically perfect world with a less imperfect world and trying to use that to address the POE, all we have to do is look at people living what many or most people in our culture would consider the ideal life: extreme wealth, fame, beauty---people whose lives many would call "perfect"--- and realize that these people obviously don't consider their personal worlds perfect either: people like Heath Ledger, Brittany Spears, and Curt Cobain who have all of the above and still find life unbearable to the point of willingly ending it or losing their minds.



"Minor" as compared to what? If the worst thing that could happen in a particular reality would be something that we, looking at it from the perspective of this reality, considered minor, it wouldn't be minor to the occupants of that reality.

Major/minor are relative terms.



I showed you how. I showed you 2 formulas: one was meant to demonstrate that perfection is a logical impossibility. The other was intended to show that the idea of our living in a "better" world is also a logical impossibility.

When I asked you how you would go about fixing the world, I wasn't looking for specific details I was looking for a formula that, relatively speaking, didn't land us right back where we started.

The formula that you seem to be suggesting is Reality minus Imperfections equal Perfection (or close enough).

This doesn't resolve the POE. If the POE is meant to demonstrate that the idea of an Omni-beneficent God is incompatible with a world that includes suffering, then your formula, according to the examples you've given, doesn't give us a perfect world, just a less "imperfect" one, and it doesn't accommodate the possibility of an Omni-beneficent God, just a slightly nicer one.

So yes, even if we create a world by your formula, we're still stuck with the POE.

Yes, it really is.

I've met people in this world who consider the fact that they're only going to be able to take one vacation to Europe or Caba San Lucas in a given year, instead of 2 or 3, "grievous suffering". Water finds it's level. So does whining.
Firstly, I didn't put forth the idea the argument that an omni-beneficent god is incompatible with a world that includes suffering. I specifically disclaim those sorts of positions.

For the rest, consider two possible environments.

In one environment, there is a child that is raised by intelligent and loving parents in a fairly stable and safe area. The child is given affection, taught values, and educated. The child encounters some obstacles, like sport injuries or some mean other children, but they learn from these minor sufferings and are happy and fulfilled in general.

In another environment, there is a child that is initially raised by parents until they are both tortured and killed, possibly even in front of the child. The child lives in poverty, without education, faces starvation, and eventually dies due to an attack from millions of multiplying microscopic biological torture devices (a virus) which are present in nature.

Going by your logic, if these children never knew of each others existence, they should have roughly the same level of suffering and fulfillment and happiness since their sensibilities should match their environment. Would you say that they do? Is one of the children more fortunate than the other, or is it totally equal?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
2) if we decide that a better definition of "perfect" is "something that couldn't possibly be improved upon" then the world actually is perfect.

Would you clarify?
I am sure you can imagine many things that could be improved upon.
So what do you mean to say exactly?
 

earlwooters

Active Member
Which God are you reffering to? The vengeful God of Judaism, the all-loving God of Christians, the peaceful (sic) Allah, Ahura Mazda the Zorastrian God, Shiva, Brahma, Bumba the African creator God, the bad God of Marcion, or maybe Melek Ta'us of the Yazidi?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yes, but they would be imaginary improvements.



I pretty much summed it up in this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2463999-post213.html

I understood part of your argument.

Some things are still left unclear, let me go over them.

1) Why would it be a logical impossibility for God to think hypothetically?

2) If we accept that God is infinite and perfect, why would it be impossible for a world ( a reality ) to be infinite and perfect?

3) Why is it a flaw to have a limit on the potential good on the universe ? Couldn't God have created a finite universe?

4) You have been using the word 'better' as the operative definition of 'perfect'. That doesn't work. It has to be the 'best possible'.

5) Those imaginary improvements are imaginary until they are actualized. Not?
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
You seem to be saying that Allah has created people as people, and then told them not to act like people. And I didn't see an explanation as to why we bother with this life, when we could immediately appear with whatever Allah wants/needs us for. (despite the fact that the idea of "need" doesn't even make sense in relation to all-powerfulness.)

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
Have you ever heard of proof by contrapositive? In logic, the statement P => Q is equivalent to the statement not-Q => not-P. We can substitute P as "A benevolent all-powerful God exists" and Q as "the world is perfect." Wouldn't you agree that the existence of that God logically implies a perfect world?

However, we can quite clearly see that not-Q is true, i.e. that the world is not perfect. Therefore, not-P: The god described does not exist.

There are a finite number of human-imaginable worlds. Why didn't God create the best of those?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
For the rest, consider two possible environments.

In one environment, there is a child that is raised by intelligent and loving parents in a fairly stable and safe area. The child is given affection, taught values, and educated. The child encounters some obstacles, like sport injuries or some mean other children, but they learn from these minor sufferings and are happy and fulfilled in general.

In another environment, there is a child that is initially raised by parents until they are both tortured and killed, possibly even in front of the child. The child lives in poverty, without education, faces starvation, and eventually dies due to an attack from millions of multiplying microscopic biological torture devices (a virus) which are present in nature.

Going by your logic, if these children never knew of each others existence, they should have roughly the same level of suffering and fulfillment and happiness since their sensibilities should match their environment. Would you say that they do? Is one of the children more fortunate than the other, or is it totally equal?
Happiness and fulfillment don't come from the environment.
 
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