If God existed how could it be proven?

[Trailblazer]

How many times do I need to correct your blatantly false accusations before they are simply bold faced lies?

How many times do I need to repeat yours?
I never made any excuses for God.

 

[McBell]

How many times do I need to repeat yours?
I never made any excuses for God.

Is that a three, or a four?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is that a three, or a four?

I never made any excuses for God because an infallible God can never need any excuses.
Logic 101.

 

[night912]

It's possible for someone to make excuses without they themselves realizing that they are in fact, making excuses.

Something to think about.

 

[McBell]

I never made any excuses for God because an infallible God can never need any excuses.
Logic 101.

so five then?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's possible for someone to make excuses without they themselves realizing that they are in fact, making excuses.

Something to think about.

It is also possible for someone to think someone else is making excuses for God and project what they think onto the person they are talking to.

Explain how God would ever need to be excused by humans. Nothing could be more illogical, nothing.

When atheists say God needs excuses this is what atheists are saying: I know more than God. God is not doing what I think God should do so God needs an excuse for not doing what I think God should do, as if any human knows more than God or as if God is answerable to the humans for what he does or does not do.
Nothing could be more illogical or more arrogant, nothing.

 

[Trailblazer]

so five then?

Zero

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is from a Christian website:

"God also has the basic characteristics of personality—intellect, emotions, and will. He thinks, He feels, and He acts. And that is good news. Because He is a living person we can get to know Him personally and communicate with Him freely. If He were an inanimate object or an impersonal force there would be no hope of a personal relationship with Him." God is Spirit

Baha'is do not believe that we can get to know God personally and communicate with Him freely and we do not believe that we can have any direct personal relationship with God. We believe that the only way we can relate to God is through the Messenger of God.

Bahais do not believe that God is a person, that is a Christian belief.

"What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension."
God in the Baháʼí Faith

We can never know the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God.
We can know the attributes of God because they are perfectly reflected in the Messengers of God. That is why Jesus said that the Father is in the Son.

How does the first link you gave of the Greek view of spirit and god as an essence in your other links relate?

I wasn't christian 96% of my life and that 4% I had no spiritual awakening from the practice (it didn't change my life).

So, god as a person and god as an unknowable essence sounds foreign.

If he is unknowable, how is it logical to ask an atheist or anyone to prove god?

Are you basically asking can you prove the manifestations wrong?

 

[McBell]

It is also possible for someone to think someone else is making excuses for God and project what they think onto the person they are talking to.

Now one has to wonder who it is you are trying to convince.
Hells bells, you just flat out refuse to let it go.

Explain how God would ever need to be excused by humans. Nothing could be more illogical, nothing.

I never once said that god needed excuses.
That is the bold faced lie you keep repeating.
I asked you why you keep making excuses for god.
You keep claiming you are not.

But instead of agreeing to disagree, you keep it going because you have not yet convinced yourself of it.

Basically this is what it amounts to: I know more than God. God is not doing what I think God should do so God needs an excuse for not doing what I think God should do, as if any human knows more than God or as if God is answerable to the humans for what he does or does not do.

Good good.
Get off your chest.
Stop off loading it onto others.
Figure out why you cannot accept it and work on that....

Nothing could be more illogical or more arrogant, nothing.

Nothing except your repeatedly bring up your bold faced lies.

Perhaps one day you will be able to convince yourself.
Hopefully before you give yourself an ulcer.....

 

[rational experiences]

Everyone of us today was a baby born by human sex grown into an adult.

Science human natural conscience first observation. I am not either of my two human parents. Thinking first original humans first memory of all humans deceased.

Theist baby human says I returned from the dead.

Would then cause another human to ask what are you theorising.

I am using full self human conscious identification aware.

Humans die.

Yet in nature the humans young first parent had sex had babies babies grew saw parents die. Memory.

Memory is used consciously in theism so a theist lies. Looking back.

Quantified as false preaching as theists do not use human sex in science theories about self presence. If they did they would not theory.

Factual human condition in egotism.

Any living body today is present by sex. Science fact is about natural status first state philosophy said life is instant right now you cannot theory against its nature. To look back.

Factual first status in human science.

Yet science did. Sex is why life is living today. No other theory was accepted why the bible was a documented theists false contradiction caused.

Proven false ideals as it did not include natural human sex.

It was a documented natural body attack change. As a thesis. Thesis does not own natural history or natural change.

A confession about sion.

Fusion. Science fission taking possession of gods mass energy. Attacking first natural god in science earths cold fusion.

Cold fusion is God the natural earth mass. Space pressure extreme cold stopped burning mass consuming. A held planet.

Changed brain vision memory by radiation released was equals to earth mass caused by machine causes was not in the subject calculated want.

Man in science then put human sciences ground dust reaction he caused before recorded human life existed.

Mass equals same reaction. As he applied it in machine the natural mass changed also. Changed to lesser radiation outcome the answer.

As thesis is first directly related to natural mass itself.

Possessed by their beliefs science AI caused preached a human came after and out of a dust reaction.

God earth was held fused was not reactive. Proven by garden nature existing before man did science.

As man puts mind into false cross add + predictions. He minused or took away what had not existed the minus reaction so changed his mind state.

Warning. Innocent warning. Cannot know cause effect until it happens. Too late to realise you were wrong.

Self man visionary prophecy feedback recorded as man voice and image told him he was wrong in bodily changes.

First theory his review I want to copy how UFO mass flat topped mountains peak on flooded earth.∆. Mass removed as calculus.

Water X mass historic owned the recorded memories. As flooded earth. Memory in water. How a human nearly mainly water Idealised conversion by mass feedback visionary advice.

As man places self in ideas as being the law of mountain the theist nuclear occultist predicts in literature he became false possessed by what he caused. Mountain temple attack.

How he explains man self as if he represented the mountain proves he became possessed by his science.

Ufo or eye of RA or ark as terms inferred hit the mountain as the return of causes in man science lying that he controlled natural one God earth.

Or owned Sion fusion status.

 

[CG Didymus]

God does care if you know that He exists but God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, God wants it to be a choice you make. In other words, God wants you to look at the evidence and convince yourself and then choose to believe.

God does know what it would take to convince each and every person that He exists because God is all-knowing.

The part that atheists miss is that God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.

You get yourself in the most interesting arguments... or debates? or whatever you think you are doing.

I've got two Christians in the family now and they tell me God does want us to know him... and has made it obvious. Of course their idea of God is that there is God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit. They see the proof of God in His creation. They see it in the words they read in the Bible. Once they believe, they feel it in their hearts. Their Bible proofs, as you know, all depend on what they read into the verses, so that's not going to convince anyone that doesn't see things and come to believe things the way they do. And creation is incredible, but... we have people killing people, animals eating animals, microbes eating all of us, a planet that at anytime could shoot out hot magma and burn us up. This is evidence of a "loving" God? I don't think so, but Christians tell me it was all perfect until Satan rebelled and then got Adam and Eve to fall. But we don't believe that. And think they are a little off in their interpretations and beliefs. And then "feeling" it inside? What are they feeling if you and I think that they are wrong in their beliefs?

And they think you are wrong and believing in a false version of God and a false messiah. So "God" is not invisible. He's not hiding. People see him everywhere. It's just that some of us think they are seeing things. And, when it comes to Christians and their Trinity, you and I and atheists all agree... that God is not real... and the "proofs" of him are based on wrong beliefs and interpretations of a Book we don't believe in or at least don't believe is literally true.

Hey, but I'm enjoying your reading you thread.

 

[CG Didymus]

I never once said that god needed excuses.

If he's real, he's got some explaining to do? Because, if real, he doesn't sound all that loving and kind... or just, or merciful. Now wrathful and vengeful sound more like it.

 

[McBell]

If he's real, he's got some explaining to do? Because, if real, he doesn't sound all that loving and kind... or just, or merciful. Now wrathful and vengeful sound more like it.

Seems to me there are at least as many gods as there are believers.
As I stated elsewhere (I am thinking in this thread but maybe not) with all the various proposed deities and with all the various traits, wants, needs, desires, etc. available for them, it is literally a smorgasbord...
Kinda like a subway type god.
Just show up and let them know what you want in your deity and then pick it up at the end of the counter....

 

[CG Didymus]

God manifested Himself in the material realm of existence every time He sent a Messenger as His Representative.
That is as close as you will ever get to firsthand because God is Spirit so God cannot "show up" and be seen in the material world.

I know you don't believe the Bible literally, but what about angels? Supposedly, angels appear and tell things to people, especially to prophets. Do you believe angels are real? If so, we still got a problem... they are spirit beings, yet they appear in human form. If God wanted to he could send an angel to convince anybody he wanted to. Or, in visions and dreams? I know Christians that have had visions of Jesus and of heaven. And I've heard that there's been some Catholics that claim they had a vision of Mary. And, I heard that some Baha'is have had visions of Abdul Baha. So maybe not God himself, but still, those experiences were life-changing for them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Seems to me there are at least as many gods as there are believers.
As I stated elsewhere (I am thinking in this thread but maybe not) with all the various proposed deities and with all the various traits, wants, needs, desires, etc. available for them, it is literally a smorgasbord...
Kinda like a subway type god.
Just show up and let them know what you want in your deity and then pick it up at the end of the counter....

Yes, I'm dealing with a brother that is totally into 7th Day Adventist stuff. For him, the Bible verses are so convincing and obvious. But other Christians think they are off on a lot of their beliefs. Even with myself, I "believed" what I was taught by a couple of different religions. Beliefs that contradicted each other, but when I was believing them I was sure it was true... and, of course, had Scripture references that I was taught that backed it all up. But, as you say, even the definitions of who God is and what he's done and what he's going to do vary. I think the word "God" is way too general. I've said that to Baha'is and one of them said that, "No, there is only one God."

But the God they believe in is not the same God Christians believe in. And the Christian God does make himself known... sort of... like 6000 some years ago he walked in the garden with Adam. He appeared as a burning bush and as a pillar of smoke and fire. He spoke from heaven. But not the Baha'i God, he keeps a low profile. If you want to believe in him you're going to have to do by reading about him in the Baha'i writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never once said that god needed excuses.

I never once said that I am making excuses for God.
Please quote me saying I am making excuses for God or stop saying that I am making excuses for God.

You keep saying I am making excuses for God. It is all in the posts so you cannot deny it
That won't fly, not on my watch.

Mestemia said:
No offense, but this merely comes off as nothing more than you making excuses for God....
#93 Mestemia, Yesterday at 10:55 PM

Mestemia said:
If so, I am wondering why you are the one listing excuses for god.

You present a long list of excuses for God.
I point out that you presented a long list of excuses for God.
You ask why God would need excuses
I said why indeed, yet here we are.

In fact, if God really is the God you claim God to be, why indeed would god need you to make excuses for him?

You present a long list of excuses for God.
#161 Mestemia, Today at 2:11 PM

Mestemia said:
How does that follow?
Your presenting excuses for god means YOU think god needs excuses.
My pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the subject.

then why this list of excuses:

Trailblazer said: ↑
God does care if you know that He exists but God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, God wants it to be a choice you make. In other words, God wants you to look at the evidence and convince yourself and then choose to believe.

God does know what it would take to convince each and every person that He exists because God is all-knowing.

The part that atheists miss is that God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.
Atheists want God to convince them that He exists but God does not want to do that and you cannot make an all-powerful God do anything that He does not want to do.

Also, God is not going to present a different kind of evidence to everyone, evidence that is tailor-made for them like a suit. God provides the same evidence for everyone. People that choose to believe it get their reward and people who don't choose to believe it don't get the reward.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

The punishment is not getting the reward you could have had in this life and in the next life. I know of no other punishment, but judging people is not my department. I believe that God will punish truly evil people, but not nonbelievers who led good lives. I also believe that God knows all our capacities so God does not expect the same from everyone because that would not be just.
Click to expand...
#165 Mestemia, Today at 2:51 PM ​

Mestemia said:
Your list of excuses were presented in the post this post of yours is in reply to.

Trailblazer said:
All I ever did was explain how God operates.​

Your excusing your god through SoP does not change the excuses into not excuses.
#173 Mestemia, Today at 3:16 PM

​

Those are not excuses, they are just what I believe about how God operates.
An infallible God can never need any excuses for anything He chooses to do or not do. That is utterly illogical.

Excuses? Excuses for what? Excuses for not doing what you expect God to do?
Why are they excuses?
If you cannot answer that it will be because you cannot answer it without getting egg all over your face.

 

[QuestioningMind]

God does not want to remain hidden from the vast majority of people, as the vast majority of people have a religion and believe that God exists.

Regarding the Baha'i Faith, God does not want that to remain hidden, otherwise it would not have been revealed to Baha'u'llah, but after it was revealed the ball was out of God's court. It was then Baha'u'llah's job to garner a few followers who became Baha'is, and after Baha'u'llah died it was up the Baha'is to pass the message on to future generations. So, if it has remained hidden, it is not because God wants that, it is because it has not yet been made known to very many people. The same was true in the early days of all religions, only a few people recognized the Messenger of God.

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

Below are seven reasons why more people have not yet recognized Baha’u’llah.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
I cannot say if God cares that the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small, because nobody knows what God cares about. I can only say that God does not need people to believe in His new religion because God has no needs. However, according to what Baha'u'llah wrote in the following passage, God knows that there will come a time when everyone will know about Baha’u'’llah and it is possible that God will have to intervene in order for that to be accomplished.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

I'd say that you listed seven reasons why god's method for revealing himself is very ineffective. Why would god wait thousands of years and allow people to be exposed to thousands of different religions before revealing himself? Didn't he realize that most people aren't going to want to seek a 'new religion'?

And the reason so many people won't take the time to look at this new religion is because god has allowed ten of thousands of 'holy books' to be written over the centuries so that a person would have to spend every hour of every day of his/her life reading them all in hopes of stumbling upon the 'correct' one. He's remained hidden for so long that he's allowed people to convince themselves that any one of the older religions is absolutely true, based on the fact the god is so mysterious and hidden that you're expected to accept him on faith, not verifiable evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd say that you listed seven reasons why god's method for revealing himself is very ineffective. Why would god wait thousands of years and allow people to be exposed to thousands of different religions before revealing himself? Didn't he realize that most people aren't going to want to seek a 'new religion'?

God did not wait thousands of years before revealing Himself, God has revealed Himself in every age and that is why there are so many different religions. God did not reveal Himself through Baha’u’llah until the present age for a simple reason, humanity was not ready for His message until this age. God only reveals what humanity is ready for, what they are able to understand and what they need.

This short chapter explains how religion evolves over time and why: Religion and Social Evolution

Of course God knew that most people aren't going to want to seek a 'new religion' but is that a reason not to reveal one? God does not pander to people’s wants; God reveals a new religion according to humanity’s needs. Humanity should be concerned with the needs of the age they live in, not what was needed in past ages, which is no longer what humanity needs in the present age. There will be more Messengers sent in the future ages and the same principle will apply at that time. Humanity needs to recognize the Messenger that God sends in the age they live in and follow Him.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

The main problem is that people cling to the older religious traditions and they do not even understand that they are not what humanity needs in thus age, and when Baha’is tell them they balk at us and say we are trying to replace their religions, so what can we do about that? Everyone has free will to choose what they want to believe.

And the reason so many people won't take the time to look at this new religion is because god has allowed ten of thousands of 'holy books' to be written over the centuries so that a person would have to spend every hour of every day of his/her life reading them all in hopes of stumbling upon the 'correct' one. He's remained hidden for so long that he's allowed people to convince themselves that any one of the older religions is absolutely true, based on the fact the god is so mysterious and hidden that you're expected to accept him on faith, not verifiable evidence.

No, people do not have to look at all the older religions on order to find the new religion. If they are logical they will look at the new religion first and allow it to explain how it is related to all the older religions and why a new religion was necessary.

There can never be any verifiable evidence for God but there is verifiable evidence for the Baha’i Faith, that which cannot be found for any of the older religions because they are too remote in history and accurate records were not kept. All the older religions were leading up to and preparing the way for God’s Purpose for humanity which had to unfold over a long period of time. The Golden Age referred to in the Bible in which we will see the Kingdom of God on Earth, is yet to come, but we can see signs of change already all over the world. These changes began back in the mid-19th century with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and even the advancements in science are related to this new cycle of religion.

God’s Purpose

The Great Age to Come

 

[Truthseeker]

God did not wait thousands of years before revealing Himself, God has revealed Himself in every age and that is why there are so many different religions. God did not reveal Himself through Baha’u’llah until the present age for a simple reason, humanity was not ready for His message until this age. God only reveals what humanity is ready for, what they are able to understand and what they need.

This short chapter explains how religion evolves over time and why: Religion and Social Evolution

Of course God knew that most people aren't going to want to seek a 'new religion' but is that a reason not to reveal one? God does not pander to people’s wants; God reveals a new religion according to humanity’s needs. Humanity should be concerned with the needs of the age they live in, not what was needed in past ages, which is no longer what humanity needs in the present age. There will be more Messengers sent in the future ages and the same principle will apply at that time. Humanity needs to recognize the Messenger that God sends in the age they live in and follow Him.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

The main problem is that people cling to the older religious traditions and they do not even understand that they are not what humanity needs in thus age, and when Baha’is tell them they balk at us and say we are trying to replace their religions, so what can we do about that? Everyone has free will to choose what they want to believe.

No, people do not have to look at all the older religions on order to find the new religion. If they are logical they will look at the new religion first and allow it to explain how it is related to all the older religions and why a new religion was necessary.

There can never be any verifiable evidence for God but there is verifiable evidence for the Baha’i Faith, that which cannot be found for any of the older religions because they are too remote in history and accurate records were not kept. All the older religions were leading up to and preparing the way for God’s Purpose for humanity which had to unfold over a long period of time. The Golden Age referred to in the Bible in which we will see the Kingdom of God on Earth, is yet to come, but we can see signs of change already all over the world. These changes began back in the mid-19th century with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and even the advancements in science are related to this new cycle of religion.

God’s Purpose

The Great Age to Come

A good source: Shoghi Effendi, not once but three times. He is so eloquent!

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey, but I'm enjoying your reading you thread.

You came in after the party was almost over. This thread got really long really fast but I expect it to die down now, which is a relief because I have other posts on two other threads that I need to answer...
So you have Christians in the family? That sounds like fun, about as much fun as the historic heat wave we had up here in the Northwest last weekend with temps of 108. I don't know what to say to those Trinitarian Christians anymore so I don't say much. Their own Bible proves they are wrong about Jesus being God.