If God existed how could it be proven?

[Clara Tea]

1. Proof God exists?
2. God hiding?
3. God should prove his own existence.
4. Not fair for God to demand worship if he doesn't provide proof of existence

REGARDING FAITH:

Most atheists have faith (not faith in God), but don't believe in God.

Faith is belief without proof.

Some have faith that their spouse won't cheat on them. Some have faith that they won't be run over by a car when they cross the street. Obviously these faiths are broken at times. Even with broken faith, we must trust again or we will be stuck inside our houses, unable to shop or work, afraid of getting hit by another car.

Atheists refuse to believe in God (or anything) without faith. Otherwise, they'd have to believe in everything without proof....leprechauns, Fred Flintstone, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus. There are an infinite number of things to believe in, and it would be foolish to believe in them all.

Obviously the Religious Right had no faith in God. They defied God's commandment to not kill and they went to war with Iraq (specifically prohibited by Revelation).

BIBLE PARTLY WRONG:

Atheists point out that the bible was written at least 100 years after the apostles died (so could not be from direct quotations from apostles). Still, the bible could have been psychically transcribed, and it could have been perfect. Yet, with kings and popes altering the bible, and deleting many parts that don't suit their fancy, the bible has contradictions. Example: Genesis 125 and Genesis 2:18 (man created before or after animals).

LIES TO HELP US BELIEVE IN GOD:

Theists tell lies to strengthen their beliefs. For example, the lie that God loves us (flooded world in Noah's time, killing innocents)(wiped out Sodom, killing more innocents)(allows pain, disease, stinks, and evil to exist)(allowed Jesus to be killed...depriving world of a humane entity).

PROOF OF GOD:

Proof of psychic ability is easy. If it is predicted, and comes true, then likely ESP is real. This is especially so if the prediction is very complicated and impossible to mistake for mere coincidence.

If ESP is real, then it is a hop skip and a jump to believe that God can use that same means of carrying and storing information to think or to store thoughts.

Dr. Jessica Utts (Professor of statistics, University of California, Irvine), proved that ESP is real.

IS GOD HIDING:

Some believe that God made dinosaur bones to fool us into thinking that the earth is older than 6,000 years old. But, God's time is not our time, and even scientists know that such a thing is possible (called relativity). Every so-called miracle that is supposed to prove the existence of God can be thought of in different terms by atheists.

GOD SHOULD PROVE:

God gives us a test of faith. Do we believe without proof? Proving his existence would ruin that test. Hypothetically, assume that angels in heaven don't yet have a reason for God's decisions on earth, and decide for themselves to defy God's instructions. They might defy God and choose their own method. This is because they lack faith.

This same lack of faith occurred when the Religious Right elected W. Bush to be president, then used President W. Bush to attack Iraq (in defiance of God's commands not to kill and not to attack Iraq specifically). God wanted to handle terrorists in his own way, but no one (in power) had the faith to allow God to do so.

So, God wants angels and humans to have enough faith in Him to follow His guidance and not run off with their own ideas. Thus, a test of faith is necessary to enter heaven. No faith....no entry to heaven. We have to have faith to follow God's commandments whether they make sense to us or not.

 

[leroy]

If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?

Absolute Proof is a very “strong word” …. But if you look at the cosmos with a telescope and you see a dust cloud organized such that they say “hey you guys from “religious forums” , I am God and I exist. That would be enough to convince any reasonable person.

 

[leroy]

If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

He could come to earth, perform a few miracles, and even do something crazy like resurrecting in front of hundreds of people ………. O wait, he already did that

 

[Clara Tea]

To try to answer to this, we could compare to methods of providing evidence for various other things/objects/ideas.

So, if it were a dog, for example - we could ask to see photos of the dog, and if we couldn't get those, then ask if we could be taken to the dog to verify its existence ourselves. Less convincing, but still evidence, would be hair from the dog, a DNA analysis of the dog, a license obtained for the dog, evidencing the dog's mother or father, footprints the dog has left on your property. If we could approach God, point to where He lives, see His "tool marks" within His "creation" - and then verify that those are exactly what those things are claimed to be (that the category "God" is appropriate to describe this being, or that the "tool marks" are most definitely from this category of being) then that would be a start.

Now, considering your point that God may not exist "within the material world" - well, we can also look at the evidence we have for things that make no material presentation in reality. For example, "thought" itself. There is no material one can point to that represents a human thought - and yet, with our mutual understanding of the concept layed down as the base, we can readily and easily see the results of human thought all around us, and indeed, we get evidence handed to us at all times from ourselves and any other human being around us who ever say anything original (freshly formed in this case) at any time. We have almost no choice but to accept these things as products of human thought because we have ongoing firsthand knowledge and experience with our own thoughts. God, however, has exactly the same presentation and non-ongoing evidence as any mythical creature that has ever had a story written about it. And unfortunately, that is simply not convincing. And if God does not present in the material realm, then the evidence can NEVER be firsthand like in the above paragraph about the dog! When the idea that God does not present in the realm of the material is assumed, then even a mythical creature is more likely to be found than God is in our world!

When I was minoring in philosophy, I was annoyed by the branch of philosophy called existentialism (discussion of existence). Ultimately, there is no proof that one exists.

Photos of a dog could be fakes. Hair from a dog might also be fake (though it makes a dandy drink).

Aren't we the tool marks of God?

If God has no body, He might exist as only thought. If so, it should be clear that thought alone could move or make objects.

 

[Clara Tea]

Absolute Proof is a very “strong word” …. But if you look at the cosmos with a telescope and you see a dust cloud organized such that they say “hey you guys from “religious forums” , I am God and I exist. That would be enough to convince any reasonable person.

Organization of large structures in the universe is thought to have occurred early in the formation of the universe when such things were closer and exerted gravitational effects upon each other.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So how did you determined that a rock that actually exist, is aware of itself? So you also think that a cadaver has consciousness? What about a picture of a you? Do you and a picture of you have the same consciousness or different one?

Existence does not "have" consciousness. Some of what exists may occasionally manifest consciousness, much of what exists does not. My stapler exists, and trust me, it is not contemplating anything.

Staplers, rocks, trees, you, me, Donald Trump... everything can be divided on an individual scale depending on what level you're looking at the universe from. We can divide things into cells and even further atoms, these are all just smaller divisions of a much larger process that is God in its entirety. Everything except God is an illusion.

And whenever somebody uses that old saw "the fact that there is something rather than nothing means there must be a God," I just remark back that by the same reasoning, "if there is a God rather than no-God, then that means there must be a God-maker." Then they get kind of a dazed look, and walk away and promptly forget I ever said anything.

Doesn't seem to be something they want to think about. Can't imagine why.

I didn't mean to say that God created existence, I meant to say that existence if viewed in its entirety is the body of God. It's clearly a divine process and it's clearly aware of itself to some degree and quite possibly to a greater degree than we're aware of (I have no evidence to back me because we haven't observed other star systems enough to know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if consciousness and intelligence is vast throughout the universe).

 

[QuestioningMind]

If they recognized Baha'u'llah who is the Messenger of God for this age then they would know that God only hides His Essence, and they would know why, and they would also know God's attributes and God's Will for them and for humanity collectively. Much has been written and much more can be known, but what is most important to know is in one little book called Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh. It is not the easiest book for a non-Baha'i to understand but it can be understood with some help from Baha'is.

It is called Gleanings because it is kind of an extraction of information from various Tablets... from the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings

I think that pretty much confirms what I said. If your hidden god's method of revealing himself is for a person to first be fortunate enough to read one religious text out of literally tens of thousands and then to also be fortunate enough to find a Bahai's who understands it enough to properly interpret it for them, it's pretty obvious that your god wants to remain hidden from the vast majority of people.

 

[McBell]

He could come to earth, perform a few miracles, and even do something crazy like resurrecting in front of hundreds of people ………. O wait, he already did that

Prove it.

And no, merely listing claims is not even evidence, let alone proof.

 

[leroy]

Prove it.

And no, merely listing claims is not even evidence, let alone proof.

We have multiple independent historical documents confirming this event, ….. if multiple independent documents are enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an event from the past took place, why making an arbitrary exception with the resurrection?

 

[McBell]

We have multiple independent historical documents confirming this event, ….. if multiple independent documents are enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an event from the past took place, why making an arbitrary exception with the resurrection?

LIke I said, listing a bunch of bold empty claims is not evidence, let alone proof.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Trailblazer, I have to be honest. Asking for god's existence is like asking something/someone/an X factor to pop up and have some sort of physical and/or mental qualities to determine whether it exists (and all people would know despite their beliefs And lack thereof). It's a foregone conclusion.

God sounds like a placeholder for a variable X.

So, when talking about "god" it seems like talking in a foreign language that everyone gets by metaphor, analogy, and poetry, but no one knows how to actually translate these things (what the poetry means for example) so others will Get it.

In other words-it's pure jargon.

I'm honestly asking-what-is god to you that you're asking whether it can be proven?

What exactly are we proving?

 

[Trailblazer]

In that case he is extremely bad at communicating it, which is a major issue here. God seem to expect different things from us depending on what religion you follow, which could either mean that God haven't made it clear what he expects, is poor at communicating or because that these things God "expect" from us doesn't in fact come from God, but from humans. Either way it leaves atheists with no reason to be convinced.

Every religion is time/date stamped to apply to the age in which it was revealed until another religion is revealed, so what God wanted from people in the past is not what God wants from them now. People cling to the religions of the past which do not contain the latest message from God, and that's the problem.

If God wants us to follow him, then I would expect him to make it as clear as possible, why that is the case. That is the only thing I expect of him, if he do not want to do that, then why should anyone buy it?

God has made everything very clear in the Writings of Baha'u'llah but if people never read them they will never know, and that's the problem.

God could probably turn down the brightness if he wanted I don't believe that a God with such powers is stuck with having no ways to clearly communicate with us. In that case, God should have realized this massive design flaw in his creation. So it is not an excuse in my opinion.

There is no design flaw. God never intended to communicate to anyone except His Messengers directly and there are good reasons for that, not the least of which that no ordinary human has the capacity to understand God, but also because it would not be necessary for everyone to get their personal message when God can communicate to one Messenger who can pass the message alone to everyone. God might have had other ways to communicate but since God is all-knowing we can assume that God picked the best way from all the available options.

This is what is strange, if God wants me to have that choice, then why is so much effort around the world going into trying to convince people that he does exists, if he doesn't care about it and want people to have free will.

Its sort of like a person going "I don't care... you can do what you want, I think both options are good.... but, if you do this then its slightly better... But hey, not saying anything, whatever you want" it give the impression of a child or person, that say they don't want to be involved in something, but just can't hide their excitement of really wanting be a part of it, when it comes to it.

It is the religious believers who are putting in the effort, not God, because that is what they have been entrusted to do by their Prophets and Messengers, but the believers should be telling you that it is your choice to believe or not believe. God does care if you believe in Him, but only for your own sake, not for His sake, because God has no needs. Only humans have needs and everything God reveals is for human needs.

I don't agree, I see absolutely no evidence that this is the case. Humans care about each other to some degree and we can help each other, God, as above, throwing gravel into the machinery, from behind the curtain is not caring or helping.

The teachings and laws of the Messengers are not like gravel, they are the primary reason for morality and without them there never would have been any civilization.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest...” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272

 

[osgart]

Just because the gospel writers wrote stories which they attributed to Jesus that does not mean those were the exact words of Jesus. Stories written about Jesus or stories allegedly told by Jesus do not mean that a real Jesus did not exist. There is no need to interpret everything in the Bible literally, not even all Christians do that.

What did Jesus allegedly say about the days of Noah that you do not believe is true?

So you believe Jesus existed here, and is a Messenger of God and was misrepresented in the Bible, but for some of his teachings, parables, Sermon on the Mount, etc..

Noah's Ark didn't happen, and no one ever lived to be 800 years old. In Matthew 24:37-39 Jesus made a comparison of the end days to the days of Noah.

Jesus was an apocalyptic teacher according to Matthew.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God were to exist, he would be physical and material.

I can hardly believe you just said that. God is Spirit and has no physical properties. If that is what you expext, you will never find it.

"Physical" and "material" are defined by that which exists in reality. Unless we were talking about something that exists only as a concept (e.g. "democracy" or "beauty"), the idea of something that exists in reality but isn't material is a contradiction in terms, like a square circle.

"Physical" and "material" are defined by that which exists in physical reality, but physical reality is not the only reality, it is just the only reality we can SEE from the physical reality in which we presently reside, for obvious logical reasons.

This whole "God hiding" thing is a useless concept, IMO. It seems to me to be excuse-making for why it seems that God doesn't exist.

God only hides His Essence, God does not hide anything else. God reveals His attributes and His will through the Messengers, who are Manifestations of God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

We have multiple independent historical documents confirming this event, ….. if multiple independent documents are enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an event from the past took place, why making an arbitrary exception with the resurrection?

This has argued (and soundly refuted) far too often for me to do it again here. Suffice it to say that there are a few claims, many taken from a single or most two sources, and some that bear very strong evidence of later forged addition (Testimonium Flavianum).

But just look at events today, to see what real humans will often believe and accept, and what they won't. The sheer immense volume of testing on Covid-19 vaccines, the many peer-reviewed papers on the subject, and the evidence of nearly a year of administering them and the consequences that we can measure. Yet, a whole lot of people hear a conspiracy theory about microchips and the internet, and they won't believe a word of that science, and every word about the conspiracy theory. Why, I wonder?

Same thing with the Elvis is still alive myth, the conspiracy theories about JFK and 9/11, or the common belief that the government is hiding info on UFOs. (That latter, given how easily government documents leak, should be telling, because nothing -- absolutely nothing -- has leaked from a government source.)

No, far too many humans belief based on their preferences, not evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why indeed.
Yet here we are.....

I guess you could not answer that. You believe that God needs excuses yet you cannot tell me why.

Why would God need excuses? What did God do wrong? Who does God have to apologize to?

No worries, you are not the first atheist who thinks God needs excuses and none of the others could answer my questions either.

With all the various traits, attributes, assumptions, declarations, ect. about Gods character, wants, desires, demands, needs, etc. it boggles the mind to think how they piece together into a single entity.

Yet they do since God is One.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ergo, extraterrestrials which kidnap people exist. For, what interest one have to claim to be abducted by ETs?

Ciao

- viole

That is the fallacy of false equivalence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean a ghost? A being?

God is Spirit

All people I meet from all faiths have always relayed religious sources and/or experiences from and/or as god.

What do you mean by proof of god and how would one know outside their own practice and experiences?

All the religions are proof of God.

RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

 

[viole]

That is the fallacy of false equivalence.

It is not, lol.

people make things up for a variety of reasons. Some make up close encounters with E.T. and others make up close encounters with God, or whatever.

In the same way crazy people think they are Napoleon, others might like to think they are Moses.

And since even normal people would be proud to have a selfie with B. Spears, imagine the success on Facebook if you can show a selfie with the creator of all that exists. LOL

I am afraid you are going to need vastly more evidence than that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

What is it, though?

All people I came across relate it to some sort of life changing experience. Being born again, as some christians put it.

Many attribute these experiences to God, but how can they ever prove that it was because of God that they changed?