Ergo, extraterrestrials which kidnap people exist. For, what interest one have to claim to be abducted by ETs?
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- viole
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If God existed how could it be proven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Ciao
- viole
Existence does not "have" consciousness. Some of what exists may occasionally manifest consciousness, much of what exists does not. My stapler exists, and trust me, it is not contemplating anything.
And whenever somebody uses that old saw "the fact that there is something rather than nothing means there must be a God," I just remark back that by the same reasoning, "if there is a God rather than no-God, then that means there must be a God-maker." Then they get kind of a dazed look, and walk away and promptly forget I ever said anything.
Doesn't seem to be something they want to think about. Can't imagine why.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
A man who claims to be God would be mistaken for an alien? What?
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
A Noah may have existed, but an Ark event did not happen.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
It would because it's so profound people attribute the source as God/holy spirit. Proof is in the living, response, gratitude, and full change in ones life.
Do you mean a ghost? A being?
All people I meet from all faiths have always relayed religious sources and/or experiences from and/or as god.
What do you mean by proof of god and how would one know outside their own practice and experiences?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
What is it, though?
All people I came across relate it to some sort of life changing experience. Being born again, as some christians put it.
So how did you determined that a rock that actually exist, is aware of itself? So you also think that a cadaver has consciousness? What about a picture of a you? Do you and a picture of you have the same consciousness or different one?
The type of proofs of manifestation of God and his signs, include miracles, but usually Messengers performing them are accused of being sorcerers. The type that brings certainty for disbelievers per Quran is only the day of judgment. It's on that day people will be certain because the power God will display through his chosen and to the fact people will see they have no escape, will recognize God exists and his Messengers true with eye of certainty. But due to the certainty being forced upon them and they didn't attain it through striving and eyes of love, they will be blind to God's beauty and while being sure of God's existence will also be veiled to him. If there prayers had any love they would not remain in hell, but it's too late that day, to develop love.
IOW, "what we lack in evidence, we make up for with violent revenge fantasies."
It's Quranic philosophy as to why God is hidden and manifest, hidden to a degree and manifest to a degree. There are reasons God doesn't display himself fully and force faith on him, it's because it will be equivalent of the day of judgment type proof, which would mean humans have to face reckoning if he would force his display through signs and proofs.
And as for miracles, God always sends them, except when former generations reject them and so stops out of his compassion to not destroy the world.
I didn't say that your violent revenge fantasies were original.
It makes sense to me and as for the hidden unseen world lights type signs, disbelievers will either say they are going crazy or sorcery is done upon them, if they are opened a door to the sky/heaven of this world by which they ascend.
The first thing is to stop opposition to God, then God will show himself at a pace where people can accept him and won't get drunk in hate of him and his chosen ones. You asking for God to force it upon you, but if you are averse, it won't benefit you becoming sure of God, it will instead bring you to reckoning.
This philosophy of why God hides himself to a degree, makes sense to me.
IOW, you have to already believe in God for the "evidence" for God to seem convincing.
You don't have to believe, just love to see him and witness him, then he will show himself to you. And you don't understand the nature of belief in the hidden, it's not blind faith, it's connection to the hidden signs of God which is his lights who are instances of the holy spirit. If you ever did programming, they are like pointers to God, they aren't the God object but pointers to the God object.
And the reason why love is important, is because only love can see beauty of God, it's what analyzes it, and so knowledge of God's proofs and certainty has to be on pace with love. The reason why on the day of judgment God won't accept repentance of disbelievers, is because while they are sure of God's existence now and don't want to disobey him no more, it was at a pace where they saw God but their love didn't ascend with that, and it's too late for it to do so.
Even if you don't believe in God, love the idea of seeing God, drawing close to him, see what happens... if you do.
Even if you don't believe in God, love the idea of seeing God, drawing close to him, see what happens... if you do.
You were implying that God visited Earth, in the form of Jesus. I'm asking if those around then (2000 year ago) would be able to tell the difference if such happened - an alien posturing as some divinity and having the means to demonstrate such. They didn't even know about other planets let alone other life, so why wouldn't they believe an alien could be some sort of god? Not that I believe this - just as I don't believe Jesus was any kind of god or representative of God. I'm just saying that people could be easily fooled when they lacked even the basic knowledge that we now assume.
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They suspected similar things with Jinn and magic, it's about the same concept. The miracles are proven though because God would not leave his creation at the mercy of deceivers like that and is the true King and ruler.
I think more important would be that people would understand what is good, truth love and righteousness. Even demons know God is real, but that knowledge is not very useful, without righteousness.
But, to prove God exists, maybe it could be seen similarly as theory of gravity (that things fall certain way). Gravity can’t bee seen or touched, still people believe there is a force that makes things to fall. Similarly, God can be seen as an invisible force. If apple falls certain way, we can see gravity, so is there similar way to see God working? Would it be enough proof?
Bible says for example:
Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him
James 1:5
If things go as promised in the Bible, is it proof for God? For example, it can be nowadays seen that the promises told in the covenant that was done through Moses have come true:
"'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16
I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33
Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.'"
Leviticus 26:44-45
It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4
For me that things have went as told in those is proof for God. But, person who doesn’t want to believe, I don’t think anything would be enough, which is why it is kind of pointless.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
To try to answer to this, we could compare to methods of providing evidence for various other things/objects/ideas.
So, if it were a dog, for example - we could ask to see photos of the dog, and if we couldn't get those, then ask if we could be taken to the dog to verify its existence ourselves. Less convincing, but still evidence, would be hair from the dog, a DNA analysis of the dog, a license obtained for the dog, evidencing the dog's mother or father, footprints the dog has left on your property. If we could approach God, point to where He lives, see His "tool marks" within His "creation" - and then verify that those are exactly what those things are claimed to be (that the category "God" is appropriate to describe this being, or that the "tool marks" are most definitely from this category of being) then that would be a start.
Now, considering your point that God may not exist "within the material world" - well, we can also look at the evidence we have for things that make no material presentation in reality. For example, "thought" itself. There is no material one can point to that represents a human thought - and yet, with our mutual understanding of the concept layed down as the base, we can readily and easily see the results of human thought all around us, and indeed, we get evidence handed to us at all times from ourselves and any other human being around us who ever say anything original (freshly formed in this case) at any time. We have almost no choice but to accept these things as products of human thought because we have ongoing firsthand knowledge and experience with our own thoughts. God, however, has exactly the same presentation and non-ongoing evidence as any mythical creature that has ever had a story written about it. And unfortunately, that is simply not convincing. And if God does not present in the material realm, then the evidence can NEVER be firsthand like in the above paragraph about the dog! When the idea that God does not present in the realm of the material is assumed, then even a mythical creature is more likely to be found than God is in our world!
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
What I’m referencing is Vedic religious beliefs. For the Hindu, it is verifiable evidence.
Considering something to be verifiable evidence simply because it's a religious belief isn't logical.
I pointed it out clearly in my reply that #1 is something that an atheist would not accept at an ideological level, case in point.
Nor would anyone accept it on an ideological level UNLESS they decide to blindly accept something as evidence simply because it's a religious belief.