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If God existed how could it be proven?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

Seems like a huge contradiction to me. A god that insists on hiding clearly doesn't want people to know that he exists. While a god that wants people to believe he exists clearly wouldn't be in hiding.
The only thing that God hides is His Essence, God reveals His attributes and His will through the Messengers.
You would never want to see the full Light of God because it would blow you away and that is one reason why God hides part of His Light.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?
I do not think God can be proven by scientific ways, God can only be experienced from within when we open up our heart and let Gods wisdom arise through our spirirual practice.
Only then can a practitioner see sign of God in this physical world too.

This is my understanding so feel free to disagree
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My questions are

1. What is the definition of god you're referring to?

What god are you speaking of that I would know what I experience is specific to the god you're referring to?
The OP is not referring to any one religion or experience, I was just speaking of God, but when I think of God, I think of the one true God who revealed all the religions.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Cliff notes: Spiritual awakening

The spiritual awakening would have to be distinct enough that I'd know which god(s) are responsible for the spiritual awakening or whether that awakening lead to realization of the nature of existence.

How can an the source or experience of something life-changing can be in hiding?
Why would it make sense that an spiritual awakening have physical characteristics?

If you mean something like ghostbusters or casper, I don't believe there is such a way to have proof. It's an odd question that would "need" to be analyzed in more detail (thereby conversation) to answer the questions. Though, believers tend to stop short-so its hard for atheist to answer if believers find it hard to answer the questions themselves.
I was not referring to a spiritual awakening as I don't think that is proof of God. Anyone can have a spiritual awakening but that does not mean that they found God or that they know God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now we have detected something. Now we are in the realm of real and existent. At this point, only time will tell. We obviously can't assume anything and state it as definitive. As this is a hypothetical, once detected, what properties are expresses? Once you begin to accumulate empirical data, you can start to build an explanation of what it may be.

How do we distinguish between real and imaginary? We detect it.
As the description below says, "The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable."

God is inaccessible, but that does not mean God is imaginary. The universe is very vast. Is everything in the universe accessible?
To date, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no corroborated observations that provide empirical evidence of an entity that exhibits the properties that have been commonly associated/attributed to the conceptualized entities labeled 'god'. As a matter of fact, the label 'god', used frequently in this thread is quite ambiguous as the label is applied to a large number of definitions. There are no definitions of the term, that I am aware of, that apply to anything that is real and existent.
I can only offer the definition of the God I believe in, a God that is real and existent, but I realize there are many other definitions of God. Some might be similar, some dissimilar.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I do not believe that God has a form, I believe as the Bible says that God is spirit.
The comments about God hiding were for the atheists who believe that God is hiding. ;)

No educated atheist would ask questions like that honestly.

But I understand your point. Bon Voyage. ;)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?
Well, first we'd have to decide what we mean by God.

As I've mentioned more than once before, no only do we have no definition of God that would appropriate to a real (ie non-imaginary) being, but we have no clearly defined concept of 'godness', the real quality that a real God would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time and so on would lack.

So at present we don't know what (in reality) we're actually talking about, and as far as I can tell the people who seem most closely involved with the idea of God either don't know either or (though it certainly doesn't seem that way) know but aren't telling us.
 

McBell

Unbound
I wrote what I wrote above before I read what you wrote, as I always read posts line by line. You got two out of three. :)
I disagree.
I understand and accept that there are many many more than the three you listed.
Thus the reason I included the word "obvious" in my statement.

#2 is something I always hope that atheists will come to understand, because I have been saying it for over eight years on various forums. Logically speaking, if God gave us free will to choose to believe in Him or not, why would God go around and take that choice away from us by convincing us that He exists?
This really only makes sense to me if you think that its existence is all there is to it.
With all the various concepts of deities out there, its mere existence, though a rather important first step, is far from its totality.

God does care if you know that He exists but God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, God wants it to be a choice you make. In other words, God wants you to look at the evidence and convince yourself and then choose to believe.

God does know what it would take to convince each and every person that He exists because God is all-knowing.

The part that atheists miss is that God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.
Atheists want God to convince them that He exists but God does not want to do that and you cannot make an all-powerful God do anything that He does not want to do.

Also, God is not going to present a different kind of evidence to everyone, evidence that is tailor-made for them like a suit. God provides the same evidence for everyone. People that choose to believe it get their reward and people who don't choose to believe it don't get the reward.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

The punishment is not getting the reward you could have had in this life and in the next life. I know of no other punishment, but judging people is not my department. I believe that God will punish truly evil people, but not nonbelievers who led good lives. I also believe that God knows all our capacities so God does not expect the same from everyone because that would not be just.
No offense, but this merely comes off as nothing more than you making excuses for God....
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, first we'd have to decide what we mean by God.

As I've mentioned more than once before, no only do we have no definition of God that would appropriate to a real (ie non-imaginary) being, but we have no clearly defined concept of 'godness', the real quality that a real God would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time and so on would lack.
Well, you are in luck because I just posted the definition of the God I believe in on this very thread:
#87 Trailblazer, 15 minutes ago

God could do all of that and did some of that but since God does not do everything He can do, God did not do all that, esp. the part about raising the dead. God does not do things that make no sense and serve no purpose, even though time is not an issue for God. ;)
So at present we don't know what (in reality) we're actually talking about, and as far as I can tell the people who seem most closely involved with the idea of God either don't know either or (though it certainly doesn't seem that way) know but aren't telling us.
As a Baha'i, I have a clear conception of what I mean by God, as described in that post above. :)
I mean I know as much as I can know about God which is very limited.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I disagree.
I understand and accept that there are many many more than the three you listed.
Thus the reason I included the word "obvious" in my statement.
You said: “Seems to me that an all powerful, all knowing entity would not only know what it would take to convince me of its existence, but also have the power to get it done.”

I said that that there are several mutually exclusive logical conclusions you can draw from that I said that you got two out of the three that I had listed, but I did not say those were the only conclusions you can draw from that.
This really only makes sense to me if you think that its existence is all there is to it.
With all the various concepts of deities out there, its mere existence, though a rather important first step, is far from its totality.
That’s right. I guess it makes some people feel better to believe there is a God, but believing that God exists is really rather pointless if you do not know anything about God or His will for you.
No offense, but this merely comes off as nothing more than you making excuses for God....
Why would God need excuses? What did God do wrong? Who does God have to apologize to?

I feel that God does some things wrong but I know that is irrational because I know that God cannot make mistakes. Since God is infallible God can never make any mistakes and that means that God can never need any excuses for what He does. I know there is nothing I can do to change what God does because God is all-powerful. That puts me in a kind of catch-22, not liking what God does but being unable to do anything about it. :(
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?
All people will have the same dream tonight, and tomorrow they will all believe in the same God. That would impress me.

ciao

- viole
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The only thing that God hides is His Essence, God reveals His attributes and His will through the Messengers.
You would never want to see the full Light of God because it would blow you away and that is one reason why God hides part of His Light.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

If you say so, but clearly he doesn't reveal his attributes and his will very effectively. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many people convinced that he's either hiding or simply doesn't exist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
All people will have the same dream tonight, and tomorrow they will all believe in the same God. That would impress me.

ciao

- viole
Only God could make that happen but God is biding His time until everyone chooses to believe in the same God of their own free will. You know what they say about God being patient. ;)
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
My human brother preached God to my female life. I own his preaching memories.

He said God O eternal mass was unnaturally a formed language sound held by eternal being. Involved in body review. The eternal form first natural.

Language flowed was never held.

O God was held. The mistake.

God O held thinned it's surround in eternal so it burst burnt. A spatial plane evidence is burst loss. Self consumed. Remaineder the burnt eternal O scattered bodies.

Radiating bodies minus state.

Eternal burnt was God.

We came into heavens. Movement flow form is swirling O G spiral back to cooling O splitting heated DD back to OO cooling. The heavens spirit movement explained.

A teaching preached.

GOD it's only word it's movement on the face of space deep with water. The only one word is one word only.

Being in eternal our presence first as eternal burnt creation separated burning by space. God form.

Gases filled back in spatial plane.

God forced the eternal spirit out of its body again. It walked at ground state floating above ground first. Billions of formed spirit bodies. Grounding cause rooting first.

Reason zero is stone cold ground state. Above us heavens alight.

As water was the highest eternal burnt form the eternal spirits changed by water.

How it is inside our converted eternal body as inherited body.

How GOD was in heavens that caused the release.

Father first highest consciousness recorded first is inside tunnel as GOD. Exactly what you were taught.

Why man image is recorded held speaking voice. We returned to live again after ice age killed off dinosaur bodies.

We were never father mother we are all sexually conceived babies told to honour them. You don't honour when you preach science non stop.

First science killed all life when recording was first recorded as image. Proven by dinosaurs images in clouds who died burning asteroid instant snap freeze voiding vacuum.

We died first in that instance also.

Father and life came out again why it was recorded instantly.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you say so, but clearly he doesn't reveal his attributes and his will very effectively. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many people convinced that he's either hiding or simply doesn't exist.
If they recognized Baha'u'llah who is the Messenger of God for this age then they would know that God only hides His Essence, and they would know why, and they would also know God's attributes and God's Will for them and for humanity collectively. Much has been written and much more can be known, but what is most important to know is in one little book called Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh. It is not the easiest book for a non-Baha'i to understand but it can be understood with some help from Baha'is.

It is called Gleanings because it is kind of an extraction of information from various Tablets... from the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings
 
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