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If God existed how could it be proven?

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's say that something could be detectable as mass-energy, how would you know it was God?
Ideas and concepts either represent something that exists (even it it is not part of physical reality) or else they represent that which is only imaginary (something that does not exist). How do you know which is which?
Now we have detected something. Now we are in the realm of real and existent. At this point, only time will tell. We obviously can't assume anything and state it as definitive. As this is a hypothetical, once detected, what properties are expresses? Once you begin to accumulate empirical data, you can start to build an explanation of what it may be.

How do we distinguish between real and imaginary? We detect it.

I agree and I later realized that after I posted that to you and I was reading what someone else posted to me.

Correction: Empirical evidence cannot support that which cannot be observed (God), because we cannot SEE God, so we have to look for another kind of evidence. Messengers of God and the religions that are established by them is empirical evidence of God's existence.
There are other means of detecting something other than observing it solely by reflected electromagnetic radiation in the visual spectrum (light). If it has spatiotemporal extension and mass-energy, it has the potential to be detected.

Now, here again, an observation reported by an individual would not meet the original criteria of the OP, but, if confirmed would be an observation of something that exists, is real. The caveat here is that the human observer is a flawed and fallible observer, and effort must be made to verify and corroborate a reported observation. But now we have something to work with. All possible causalities must be explored, and either confirmed as the likely source/explanation, or else eliminated.
To date, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no corroborated observations that provide empirical evidence of an entity that exhibits the properties that have been commonly associated/attributed to the conceptualized entities labeled 'god'. As a matter of fact, the label 'god', used frequently in this thread is quite ambiguous as the label is applied to a large number of definitions. There are no definitions of the term, that I am aware of, that apply to anything that is real and existent.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I
I don't understand God, but if God is not hiding then God must be visible. I don't see God anywhere, do you? o_O
I see some theists say these sorts of things sometimes and I find it exceptionally honest, and in that there's truth.

Perhaps it's you expecting to understand a God that doesn't make itself known that offers the lesson. Perhaps the responsibility is on you, and if a God exists it's just not that into us.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Seems to me that an all powerful, all knowing entity would not only know what it would take to convince me of its existence, but also have the power to get it done.

Now, since I am not convinced that god exists, that leads to one of two obvious conclusions.
God either does not exist, or God cares not that I know about its condition of existence.

So it is my opinion that it matters not what I think would convince me, since, if it exists, God would know.
Now if God does not know what would convince me of its existence and or if God can not present it, then said entity is not worthy of the title God/
But there is a possible third conclusion, that is that God may actually care, but you do not?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I believe that the Messengers of God and the religions and civilizations that they establish are the empirical evidence for God.

I believe that the Holy Spirit guides those who are seeking God and open to His existence and those who make an effort, but I do not believe that God guides anyone against their will because I believe that God wants us to use our free will to choose to believe or not. The Us in the following excerpt from the Tablet of the True Seeker refers to God and His Messengers.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

Why do you believe that Jesus was a myth? The Baha'i Writings confirm the existence of Jesus, the mission of Jesus, and His death on the cross, so that is why I believe in Jesus. With what the Baha'i Writings revealed about Jesus I was able to determine how much of the New Testament is actually true and what is fictional. The Bible is quite a Pandora's box to sort through but I think I know the most important things that are in that box.

Jesus is a myth because that he preaches about the days of Noah. The story relies on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Reading the Bible itself, it demands a literal interpretation of the events in it. However people else read it is aside from that fact.
 

McBell

Unbound
But there is a possible third conclusion, that is that God may actually care, but you do not?
Sure.
I mean, I flat out admit I do not know.
And if it was as important to God as it is to so many of its followers that I know, then it is on God, is it not, to follow through?

I get the distinct impression that it is much more important to Gods followers than it is to God.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?
Perhaps he did.
We just haven’t dug it up.
Literally in the ground I mean.
But if he did it’s probably too deep and will never be found.
He probably did that as a joke only he would know about.

first it would would have to be carbon dated really old then include details of some current events. So everybody’s minds would be blown and believe. Then he could go into details about the mystery of life.

I prefer seeking on my own. Don’t really care about evidence.
 
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Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Most people would probably not accept a proof unless it is a proof they want.
I would not accept Thor as proof because I do not believe that Thor exists or has anything to do with God, so if a an entity came claiming to be Thor I would believe it was a false prophet or an alien from outer space. :eek:

Now that is a bit harsh on Thor who really does try to be the protector of the people and brought us rain here in Texas today.

So if god presented himself as a man with a cauldron that could feed multitudes of people, a staff that could kill any foes on one end and bring anyone back to life with the other end, along with a harp that could command the emotions and wills of people, would that be proof?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?

In order to hide, God must be having a form. So which form or conception of God are you addressing in this thread?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Sure.
I mean, I flat out admit I do not know.
And if it was as important to God as it is to so many of its followers that I know, then it is on God, is it not, to follow through?

I get the distinct impression that it is much more important to Gods followers than it is to God.
I suspect it is on each soul to find out precisely what and who they are in the cosmic context, not just to believe one side or the other, ie. belief or disbelief. One should eventually expect to know fully 100%, and that could take a lot of work to incrementally get there.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Seems to me that an all powerful, all knowing entity would not only know what it would take to convince me of its existence, but also have the power to get it done.
You are absolutely correct, and there are several mutually exclusive logical conclusions you can draw from that:

1. God exists but does not care if you believe in Him
2. God exists and cares that you believe in Him but does not want you to believe in Him because He convinced you
3. God does not exist
Now, since I am not convinced that god exists, that leads to one of two obvious conclusions.
God either does not exist, or God cares not that I know about its condition of existence.
I wrote what I wrote above before I read what you wrote, as I always read posts line by line. You got two out of three. :)

#2 is something I always hope that atheists will come to understand, because I have been saying it for over eight years on various forums. Logically speaking, if God gave us free will to choose to believe in Him or not, why would God go around and take that choice away from us by convincing us that He exists?

God does care if you know that He exists but God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, God wants it to be a choice you make. In other words, God wants you to look at the evidence and convince yourself and then choose to believe.
So it is my opinion that it matters not what I think would convince me, since, if it exists, God would know.
Now if God does not know what would convince me of its existence and or if God can not present it, then said entity is not worthy of the title God/
God does know what it would take to convince each and every person that He exists because God is all-knowing.

The part that atheists miss is that God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.
Atheists want God to convince them that He exists but God does not want to do that and you cannot make an all-powerful God do anything that He does not want to do.

Also, God is not going to present a different kind of evidence to everyone, evidence that is tailor-made for them like a suit. God provides the same evidence for everyone. People that choose to believe it get their reward and people who don't choose to believe it don't get the reward.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

The punishment is not getting the reward you could have had in this life and in the next life. I know of no other punishment, but judging people is not my department. I believe that God will punish truly evil people, but not nonbelievers who led good lives. I also believe that God knows all our capacities so God does not expect the same from everyone because that would not be just.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps it's you expecting to understand a God that doesn't make itself known that offers the lesson. Perhaps the responsibility is on you, and if a God exists it's just not that into us.
There is some truth to what you said.

1. God is not into us because God does not need us for anything at all since God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining, above the need for any of His creatures. It is humans who need God, and that is the only reason God reveals Himself in every age by sending a Messenger with a message that will be beneficial to humans.
2. As a Baha'i it is my responsibility to carry the message of Baha'u'llah, just as the early disciples of Jesus were entrusted with the responsibility of carrying the gospel message. However, once that message has been delivered the ball is no longer in my court unless people have questions. It is not my responsibility to convince anyone that God exists or that my religion is true because, as Baha'ullah wrote “For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus is a myth because that he preaches about the days of Noah. The story relies on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Reading the Bible itself, it demands a literal interpretation of the events in it. However people else read it is aside from that fact.
Just because the gospel writers wrote stories which they attributed to Jesus that does not mean those were the exact words of Jesus. Stories written about Jesus or stories allegedly told by Jesus do not mean that a real Jesus did not exist. There is no need to interpret everything in the Bible literally, not even all Christians do that.

What did Jesus allegedly say about the days of Noah that you do not believe is true?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now that is a bit harsh on Thor who really does try to be the protector of the people and brought us rain here in Texas today.
I'm glad you got your rain and I am glad it finally cooled off here. :) It is now 66 degrees and I love it.
So if god presented himself as a man with a cauldron that could feed multitudes of people, a staff that could kill any foes on one end and bring anyone back to life with the other end, along with a harp that could command the emotions and wills of people, would that be proof?
That would not be proof to me because that is not what I believe God is or what God does.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In order to hide, God must be having a form. So which form or conception of God are you addressing in this thread?
I do not believe that God has a form, I believe as the Bible says that God is spirit.
The comments about God hiding were for the atheists who believe that God is hiding. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Interesting detail. I stay up late and get up at 10:00 or so.
When he finally got up at about 5 pm it was too late for breakfast and he was really grouchy so I left him alone.
He finally ate a breakfast burrito on his own and I was grateful for that. He is the one who needs to eat, not me.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

Seems like a huge contradiction to me. A god that insists on hiding clearly doesn't want people to know that he exists. While a god that wants people to believe he exists clearly wouldn't be in hiding.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Ancient Indian tradition had developed a sophisticated system of epistemology called pramanas. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. Epistemology attempts to prove God through logic alone.
I made a thread a little while back asking atheists if epistemology would ever provide satisfactory proof of God’s existence. Like, can one prove God through logic alone. The general consensus was no, as they understandably would prefer material evidence provided by natural science.
A pramana is a legitimate means to attain knowledge. Overall, their were six theorized different pramanas. The Nyaya Indian philosophy recognized four of these as legitimate means to attain knowledge I.e. prove God. I’ll reference this school of thought because they had the most developed school of epistemology from among the differing Indian philosophies.
the four valid means of attaining knowledge are:
1. Word/testimony from reliable sources
2. Perception
3. Inference
4. Comparison

1. Word and testimony as a valid means to attain knowledge is something that an atheist would never accept at an ideological level (I believe, I’m not atheist myself). The Hindus used this as argument because they believed that their very first sages from the most ancient times dived deep into meditation. When they were in this deep meditation, they were in direct contact with Brahman, and received true knowledge directly from Brahaman. This knowledge is what is passed down in ancient Vedic tradition. A Christian could use this argument, saying that the Bible proves God itself because the Bible says that God is real. This is a valid argument because the Bible is a reliable source.

I’ll discuss the other ones later on this thread, cooking myself some eggs :)


I'm afraid your logic breaks down with #1.

They believed that their very first sages from the most ancient times dived deep into meditation. When they were in this deep meditation, they were in direct contact with Brahman, and received true knowledge directly from Brahaman.

Unless they have verifiable evidence that this belief is actually true, it would be illogical to consider them to be a reliable source.
 
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