If God existed, would there be any atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Then why do they have "teaching" projects? They "bait" them in with food, music, a movie, and a speaker. They have declaration cards on hand ready to be filled out.

I do not have any teaching projects as I am not involved with the Baha'i community.

When you say people already have their beliefs and aren't looking for a new religion, I'd call that a strike.

I'd call it the truth. Just ask them Jews, Christians and Muslims if they are looking for a new religion and you'll find out the truth.

When a Persian man takes the title of Baha'u'llah, "The Glory of God" and proclaims himself to be the return of everybody ever promised by any religion, then that's a strike. It's an automatic turn off especially for Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

It is not a strike, it is just what I believe to be the truth. Is it a strike against me when Christians say Jesus is the Only Way?

Ask me if I care if it turns them off. That's their problem, not mine. Their minds are as closed as steel traps. It would take an act of God to pry them open.

What you call "preconceived" ideas are people's beliefs they got from their Scriptures. To get through the "narrow gate", people were supposed to be following the teachings in those Scriptures.

Too bad they did not follow Jesus but rather followed Christianity, as they won't get through the narrow gate that way.

But why are you using quotes from the Bible and the NT?

Because those verses apply to the Baha'i Faith, which is now the narrow gate, very narrow.

Do you really read it and care about it... and understand it? Or, is it only something to be cherry picked through for verses that you can use?

I can pick whatever verses I want to pick and leave the rest. No, I do not care about the resurrection stories because I believe they are works of fiction, but I care about the spiritual teachings of Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

Anyone can talk to God, in prayer, but only Messengers of God hear God speak through the Holy Spirit.

And who is the Holy Spirit? The third person of a Trinitarian God? I doubt Baha'is believe that. But some people got their messages from God by an angel, or "messenger" from God. So, again, since he is not a manifestatoin or a prophet, did an angel speak to Joseph Smith or is he lying?

Evidence evaluation is the best tool to determine if a religion is true. Whether a religion is true or not is determined by the evidence, but not everyone will view the same evidence the same way, and that is why it has to be an individual determination as to whether a religion is true or not.

You are correct that if religions contradict they cannot both be right. It is our responsibility to determine which religion is right, by looking at the evidence for ourselves.

And people come up with different answers. A Christian can say... "The Bible says such and such, therefore the Baha'i Faith is false." The Baha'is can say... "The Bible should not be taken literally and Christians misinterpret that verse." Who's telling the truth? In their own minds they both are, but neither of their beliefs are necessarily true.

Are you saying that a person's religion is just their own opinion, nothing more?

And do they ever think of it as being "only" their opinion? They all think that their Scriptures are true and are the proof that their prophet spoke the truth... even though all those Scriptures say contradictory things. Christians reinterpret the Jewish Bible and Baha'is reinterpret the all Scriptures of all religions to "prove" that what they say is the truth and is consistent with all past Scriptures.

If religion A is true, then it is true for EVERYONE. It can't be true for some people but false for other people. So if people are making determinations about which religion is true based on unverifiable evidence, which not everyone will view in the same way, that introduces biases.

Yes, but all those other religions are wrong. Baha'is say that those other religions, other than misinterpreting their own Scriptures, they added in man made beliefs into them. The other thing they use once in a while is to say those Scriptures, because they are old and because we don't know who wrote them, they aren't 100% authentic. Naturally, the "authentic" parts are the ones Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders have said are authentic. It works for them. Rock solid proof... if one cares to belief it. Of course after scrutinizing it to make sure everything is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not a strike,

Have you ever played baseball?

Too bad they did not follow Jesus but rather followed Christianity, as they won't get through the narrow gate that way.

So when was Christianity ever teaching the truth?

Because those verses apply to the Baha'i Faith, which is now the narrow gate, very narrow.

I can pick whatever verses I want to pick and leave the rest. No, I do not care about the resurrection stories because I believe they are works of fiction, but I care about the spiritual teachings of Jesus.

Of course you can pick any verses you want. Who cares about the context. Hmmm? What is that called again?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not have any teaching projects as I am not involved with the Baha'i community.

And the umpire calls a strike on the outside corner... a believer that doesn't participate in the activities of their religious community.

Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 33-34. “Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.​

But you are "teaching" you are here telling people about the Baha'i Faith. Or do you have an aversion to calling it teaching?

 

[Trailblazer]

And who is the Holy Spirit? The third person of a Trinitarian God? I doubt Baha'is believe that. But some people got their messages from God by an angel, or "messenger" from God. So, again, since he is not a manifestatoin or a prophet, did an angel speak to Joseph Smith or is he lying?

I do not know what happened. I do not call people liars.

And people come up with different answers. A Christian can say... "The Bible says such and such, therefore the Baha'i Faith is false." The Baha'is can say... "The Bible should not be taken literally and Christians misinterpret that verse." Who's telling the truth? In their own minds they both are, but neither of their beliefs are necessarily true.

That’s right, in their own minds they are both telling the truth, but they cannot both be right because what they are saying is contradictory.

People come up with different answers and nobody can prove that religious beliefs are true so one has to use their own reason and judgment.

And do they ever think of it as being "only" their opinion? They all think that their Scriptures are true and are the proof that their prophet spoke the truth... even though all those Scriptures say contradictory things. Christians reinterpret the Jewish Bible and Baha'is reinterpret the all Scriptures of all religions to "prove" that what they say is the truth and is consistent with all past Scriptures.

You are right, Jews and Christians do not say it is their opinion, they state their beliefs as if they are an unequivocal fact, but just wait and see how I answer Tiberius later.

I believe my scriptures are true and that Baha’u’llah spoke the truth but that is only my opinion.

The Scriptures do not say contradictory things; the people who believe in them say contradictory things because they all interpret the scriptures differently.

Yes, but all those other religions are wrong. Baha'is say that those other religions, other than misinterpreting their own Scriptures, they added in man made beliefs into them. The other thing they use once in a while is to say those Scriptures, because they are old and because we don't know who wrote them, they aren't 100% authentic. Naturally, the "authentic" parts are the ones Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders have said are authentic. It works for them. Rock solid proof... if one cares to belief it. Of course after scrutinizing it to make sure everything is true.

It works for me because it makes logical sense to me. YMMV.
What makes logical sense to one person does not always make logical sense to another person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you ever played baseball?

It's been years....

What is a strike?
During each at bat in baseball the batter gets up to three strikes to hit the ball. A strike is anytime the hitter swings at a pitch and misses or any pitch that is in the strike zone (whether the hitter swings or not). Three strikes and the batter is out!
Baseball: Strikes, Balls, and The Strike Zone

How is this related to what we were discussing?

So when was Christianity ever teaching the truth?

Probably never. But Jesus taught the truth.

Of course you can pick any verses you want. Who cares about the context. Hmmm? What is that called again?

I always look at the context.

 

[Trailblazer]

And the umpire calls a strike on the outside corner... a believer that doesn't participate in the activities of their religious community.

Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 33-34. “Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.​

But you are "teaching" you are here telling people about the Baha'i Faith. Or do you have an aversion to calling it teaching?

Call it what you like. I am simply responding to posts, almost always to posts that are posted to me directly.
I will talk about Baha'i if people ask or if it is related to a dialogue.

Baha'is are supposed to share but only teach if people ask questions or show an interest.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding…. “ Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

But that does not mean I have a purpose in mind or that I am trying to attain an object. I have no such thoughts. I just like to talk to people about whatever they want to talk about.

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s right, in their own minds they are both telling the truth, but they cannot both be right because what they are saying is contradictory.

People come up with different answers and nobody can prove that religious beliefs are true so one has to use their own reason and judgment.

Yes, so some people come to the conclusion that people have made up their own Gods and religions. And...

The Scriptures do not say contradictory things; the people who believe in them say contradictory things because they all interpret the scriptures differently.

I don't know what Scriptures you've been reading, but some people find contradictions within the Scriptures of one religion. Now look at all the Scriptures of all the religions... and you really, really believe there are no, like in zero, contradictions?

What is a strike?
How is this related to what we were discussing?

Because I said that the Baha'i Faith has a lot of strikes already against them when they go out try to "teach" the Faith. One strike is just because the Baha'i Faith is a religion. Because of that, some people already reject it. Another is that it falls into that thing called an "organized" religion. The Baha'i Faith has the UHJ, the NSA's and the LSA's, the Hands of the Cause (are there any left), Continental Board of Counselors, Auxiliary Board Members, and whatever else. But... at least you don't have a paid clergy. That's a good thing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, so some people come to the conclusion that people have made up their own Gods and religions. And...

I don't know what Scriptures you've been reading, but some people find contradictions within the Scriptures of one religion. Now look at all the Scriptures of all the religions... and you really, really believe there are no, like in zero, contradictions?

I do not think there are any contradictions between the spiritual things religions teach, but there are differences -- and I guess you could call those contradictions -- between the social teachings and laws because those are "modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” It is as Abdu'l-Baha said:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

Because I said that the Baha'i Faith has a lot of strikes already against them when they go out try to "teach" the Faith. One strike is just because the Baha'i Faith is a religion. Because of that, some people already reject it. Another is that it falls into that thing called an "organized" religion. The Baha'i Faith has the UHJ, the NSA's and the LSA's, the Hands of the Cause (are there any left), Continental Board of Counselors, Auxiliary Board Members, and whatever else. But... at least you don't have a paid clergy. That's a good thing.

I can certainly agree with you that we have a lot of strikes against us before we even the out of the door. We are fighting an uphill battle, so it is only true seekers who are looking for a 'new and different' religion and those who want to serve humanity who will be attracted, and they would also be able to understand and accept the institutions and the Laws.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you said in post 284 that you had verified that he heard God. Sounds to me it was just you deciding on an opinion, you didn't actually verify anything.

verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified verify means - Google Search

I said: So I have verified in my mind that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, but that does not mean I can prove it to anyone else. Everyone has to verify that for themselves. And that is what we Baha’is refer to as the Independent Investigation of Truth.

I said: I believe He was a Messenger of God -- That means that I have looked at all of the evidence that indicates that He was a Messenger of God and from that evidence I determined that He was a Messenger of God.

In my opinion, He was a Messenger of God.

And you agree that your own religious belief is just an opinion?

I just said so. In my opinion, He was a Messenger of God.

Since a religious belief can never be proven as a fact it will always be an opinion.

But we can minimize them so they have little effect on our final results.

Bias: prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. bias means - Google Search

I do not see how personal bias applies to a search for religious truth. For example, I lean towards the Baha’i Faith rather than towards some other religion because I believe in the unity of mankind and social and economic justice and many other teachings of the Baha’i Faith.

I believe that to attain our final results (what we will choose to believe is true) we should do our own research and make our decision by virtue of our own free will. Here is how I define free will:

The will is the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

So by getting other people to review your work, biases CAN be minimised.

That is not the goal, to eliminate personal biases. The goal is to make our own free will decision based upon our OWN research and our own rational thought processes.

I guess I have to repeat myself.

“….. inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says in red above is is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

I do trust my judgement, but I'm also aware that it can be fooled, so I prefer to have something a little more concrete to go on.

The evidence is the evidence, that is all we have to go on.

It's simply putting testable claims to an actual test. The Bible also says that people with even a tiny amount of faith can pray for mountains to move, and the mountains actually will go jumping about the countryside.

Religious claims are not testable like scientific claims. We can only test them by practicing the religion and seeing what happens and thereby faith is achieved. Faith is a personal thing.

That faith can move mountains is metaphorical, not literal. It means that with strong faith can do what we would otherwise consider impossible.

If it is obviously the case that I'm an atheist, why did you ask me if I believed Christianity was true because lots of people think it is true?

I do not remember what I asked you, but most atheist I know were formerly Christians so they talk as if Christianity is true even though they do not believe it anymore… Go figure.

Anything that can be put to the test and checked by other people.

But we do not even want other people’s opinions on what to believe. We need to make our own decision. If we cannot even trust ourselves to look at the evidence and make an informed decision, what does that say about us?

If someone claims I can come to know their deity of choice by opening my heart to that deity, then that is not checkable. Even if I get the result they promise, I can never be sure that it wasn't because of some personal bias I had.

That is true, because you could have been imagining that you “felt the deity in your heart” and you might feel that way simply because you have a desire to feel that way. There is no way to prove deity claims. For example, Christians say that God guides them through the Holy Spirit, but there is no way to prove that, it is just a belief.

But if someone tells me that the proof of their religion is that when you say a certain word, a particular event will happen that can only come from a deity, I can put it to the test. And I can repeat the test multiple times to make sure that the result I got was not a fluke. And I can get other people to do it as well. If they all report consistent results, then that is verified evidence that the religious claim is true.

But there is no particular event that can only come from a deity so there is no way to prove a religion is true in that way. The deity cannot be put to a test. The only way we can know if a religion is true is by looking at the evidence that indicates that TO US. Everyone is not going to interpret the same evidence in the same way so there is no way everyone will believe in the same religion, at least not at this time in history. However, I believe that everyone will be see the evidence the same way in the future because eventually the evidence will be indisputable and clear to everyone.

it doesn't matter. You still could have had some bias that influenced you towards being more forgiving when it came to evidence supporting Baha'i and stricter when it came to evidence against it. Like I've been saying, that's why we need some way to verify it and eliminate those biases.

And as I have been saying, we do not want to eliminate personal opinions. The goal is to make our own decision based upon our own thinking processes, using our rational mind. For example, I do not think that Christianity as it is taught by the Church can be a true because I consider it irrational and unjust so I could never be a Christian. Is that a bias against Christianity? No, it is based upon an opinion about Christianity I came to by employing rational thought processes. I cannot believe Jesus rose from the dead or that people rise from their graves after they die, and I cannot believe that we are saved by the cross sacrifice alone, and I cannot believe that Jesus is the only way, and I cannot believe that all the other religions are false, so I cannot be a Christian. None of these beliefs align with my desires and preferences which are derived from my childhood upbringing, education, or my adult experiences, so I cannot accommodate them in my rational mind.

But Christians have a different opinion because they think differently about these beliefs than I do. Maybe they just believe them on emotion without thinking or maybe they think these are rational, I don’t really know why they believe what they do and of course that would be different for every Christian, as no two people are alike.

All I care about is the evidence for Baha’u’llah because that is the only thing that really matters when it comes to deciding if my religion is true or false. If there is objective evidence against Baha’u’llah that could prove he made false claims I will look at it, but I will do that myself using my rational mind. I do not care about other’s opinions, only facts.

So you do understand the importance of verifiable information? Why do you request verifiable information to disprove your beliefs, but apparently not to support them?

I do request verifiable information to support my beliefs.

Of course, what counts as something no true messenger of God would do is just another opinion.

Yes it is, as everything we have is an opinion. In my opinion, if Bahaullah had multiple incidents of physical and sexual abuse against children, I could not believe He was a Messenger of God, because that behavior would reflect on His character. However, many people had the opinion that David Koresh was a Prophet even though Koresh was alleged to be involved in multiple incidents of physical and sexual abuse against children.

I still don't think you get it. The whole idea is to remove opinion altogether. That's why you go and look at verifiable facts.

You cannot remove opinion because everyone will have a different opinion about the verifiable facts surrounding Baha’u’llah.

 

[Tiberius]

verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified verify means - Google Search

I said: So I have verified in my mind that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, but that does not mean I can prove it to anyone else. Everyone has to verify that for themselves. And that is what we Baha’is refer to as the Independent Investigation of Truth.

I said: I believe He was a Messenger of God -- That means that I have looked at all of the evidence that indicates that He was a Messenger of God and from that evidence I determined that He was a Messenger of God.

In my opinion, He was a Messenger of God.

Having an opinion that you are completely certain of does not mean that opinion is verified.

I just said so. In my opinion, He was a Messenger of God.

Since a religious belief can never be proven as a fact it will always be an opinion.

So it's unprovable, but you can verify it.

Bias: prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. bias means - Google Search

I do not see how personal bias applies to a search for religious truth. For example, I lean towards the Baha’i Faith rather than towards some other religion because I believe in the unity of mankind and social and economic justice and many other teachings of the Baha’i Faith.

I believe that to attain our final results (what we will choose to believe is true) we should do our own research and make our decision by virtue of our own free will. Here is how I define free will:

The will is the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

A person can be biased towards a particular religious faith because that's how they were raised, or because they were pressured into that faith, or people of that faith welcomed them while they were vulnerable. Lots of reasons.

That is not the goal, to eliminate personal biases. The goal is to make our own free will decision based upon our OWN research and our own rational thought processes.

I guess I have to repeat myself.

“….. inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says in red above is is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

Sounds like your religion encourages people to be biased towards it.

The evidence is the evidence, that is all we have to go on.

And you let your opinion of that evidence be coloured by your opinion and baises.

Religious claims are not testable like scientific claims. We can only test them by practicing the religion and seeing what happens and thereby faith is achieved. Faith is a personal thing.

Then it's not objectively true and we can conclude that religions do not describe actual reality.

Now, since I prefer to keep myself grounded in reality, I can conclude that your religion is objectively false.

That faith can move mountains is metaphorical, not literal. It means that with strong faith can do what we would otherwise consider impossible.

Of course. Convenient interpretation so you don't have to deal with things that don't work.

I do not remember what I asked you, but most atheist I know were formerly Christians so they talk as if Christianity is true even though they do not believe it anymore… Go figure.

The start of each quote has links to the post being quoted, so it will be very easy for you to follow the conversation back.

But we do not even want other people’s opinions on what to believe. We need to make our own decision. If we cannot even trust ourselves to look at the evidence and make an informed decision, what does that say about us?

If you do not want other people's opinions about what to believe, why do you read about it? Or listen to sermons?

That is true, because you could have been imagining that you “felt the deity in your heart” and you might feel that way simply because you have a desire to feel that way. There is no way to prove deity claims. For example, Christians say that God guides them through the Holy Spirit, but there is no way to prove that, it is just a belief.

So verification is impossible.

But there is no particular event that can only come from a deity so there is no way to prove a religion is true in that way. The deity cannot be put to a test. The only way we can know if a religion is true is by looking at the evidence that indicates that TO US. Everyone is not going to interpret the same evidence in the same way so there is no way everyone will believe in the same religion, at least not at this time in history. However, I believe that everyone will be see the evidence the same way in the future because eventually the evidence will be indisputable and clear to everyone.

If there is no event that can only come from a deity, then there is no need for a deity.

And as I have been saying, we do not want to eliminate personal opinions. The goal is to make our own decision based upon our own thinking processes, using our rational mind. For example, I do not think that Christianity as it is taught by the Church can be a true because I consider it irrational and unjust so I could never be a Christian. Is that a bias against Christianity? No, it is based upon an opinion about Christianity I came to by employing rational thought processes. I cannot believe Jesus rose from the dead or that people rise from their graves after they die, and I cannot believe that we are saved by the cross sacrifice alone, and I cannot believe that Jesus is the only way, and I cannot believe that all the other religions are false, so I cannot be a Christian. None of these beliefs align with my desires and preferences which are derived from my childhood upbringing, education, or my adult experiences, so I cannot accommodate them in my rational mind.

How can it be rational if it's based on personal opinions?

And yes, that is a bias against Christianity.

In any investigation about the objectively true nature of reality, we most certainly DO want to eliminate biases and personal opinion as much as possible.

I do request verifiable information to support my beliefs.

Yet you have claimed several times now that any evidence supporting religion can NOT be verified. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Yes it is, as everything we have is an opinion. In my opinion, if Bahaullah had multiple incidents of physical and sexual abuse against children, I could not believe He was a Messenger of God, because that behavior would reflect on His character. However, many people had the opinion that David Koresh was a Prophet even though Koresh was alleged to be involved in multiple incidents of physical and sexual abuse against children.

And if Koresh had been innocent of those assaults and was generally a nice guy, would you believe he was a messenger from God?

You cannot remove opinion because everyone will have a different opinion about the verifiable facts surrounding Baha’u’llah.

You can make sure any effect from opinion is reduced by having other people come in. Since different people have different opinions, the effect of any one person's opinion will be diluted.

This is not a difficult concept and is used to great effect in scince.

 

[CG Didymus]

If someone claims I can come to know their deity of choice by opening my heart to that deity, then that is not checkable. Even if I get the result they promise, I can never be sure that it wasn't because of some personal bias I had.

But if someone tells me that the proof of their religion is that when you say a certain word, a particular event will happen that can only come from a deity, I can put it to the test. And I can repeat the test multiple times to make sure that the result I got was not a fluke. And I can get other people to do it as well. If they all report consistent results, then that is verified evidence that the religious claim is true.

But there is no particular event that can only come from a deity so there is no way to prove a religion is true in that way. The deity cannot be put to a test.

Religious claims are not testable like scientific claims.

Then it's not objectively true and we can conclude that religions do not describe actual reality.

The story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

1 Kings 18:19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel.
21 Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing.
22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.
23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it.
24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God.” Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.”
26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.”
28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed.
29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.
30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which had been torn down.
31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.”
32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed.
33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”
34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again. “Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time.
35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.
37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.
​

Simple test... and it's repeatable... that is unless we kill all the false prophets, because at some point we'll run out of people Let each religion send a representative and see if their prayers are answered. I got a feeling not one religion will be successful in having God hear them.

 

[rational experiences]

In modern science occultism, the nuclear power plant O cycle around the sun travel model.....allowed black mass radiation to be present in space to communicate its relative appearance to the science psyche.

Science was always taught, nothing new...as relative self advice.

Hence when you begin to destroy bio life and attack Earth O nature, witness it, know that science is causing it...confess as that scientist, yes I am causing it...are you not the son of the apostasy the Destroyer in person?

I would say yes I am.

Ask him how he did it...…..God O the Earth mass is cold stone radiation fused.

So he brings cold spatial mass radiation held cold frozen in space into our gas light burning and begins to heat up space...and year after year after year space gets hotter and hotter and hotter...and Earth life changed, huge natural disasters activate whilst he causes it his own self.

Says I can experiment and cause it again he says....I know I can...and then he does.

Yet that science mentality DNA male life o cellular owner probability maths O enlargement against self and prophecy and a future, says when I get to the Year such and such in Earth future as a male and a prophet and a scientist mathematician/experimental converter I will have all life destroyed....but says it as his own self.

And so has to keep on existing as that male science self as a newly born baby, reborn and reliving his science mentality until in a future date and by all of his science owned cult group cause he then destroys all life on Earth, just as he knows and then he writes a document to tell everyone....yep it is true about the son of the apostasy so listen to my preaching of falseness.

Yet no one listens or heeds his own warnings to his own humanity......really wrong of you all.

Now if you ask a Preacher of the Bible......did you not in science history claim...only the wise and spiritual are allowed to read or preach from this evil information for you interpret spiritual meaning....and not science/occult methodology?

And then said that any low life conscious member who wanted to understand the spiritual wisdom, would not be allowed into the higher echelon of spirituality for they proved that they sought information for our destruction.

Hence only spiritual conscious, non science practitioners were allowed to read about the evil, yet not preach on its behalf?

I think that is what all the brothers did in spiritual orders who said philosophy is just a wisdom it is not a science/machine reaction. And forbade any lower destructive mentality non presence in their spiritual orders?

 

[Trailblazer]

Having an opinion that you are completely certain of does not mean that opinion is verified.

It means it has been verified by me.

So it's unprovable, but you can verify it.

Correct. I have verified it because I have demonstrated to myself that my belief is true, accurate and justified.

verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified verify means - Google Search

A person can be biased towards a particular religious faith because that's how they were raised, or because they were pressured into that faith, or people of that faith welcomed them while they were vulnerable. Lots of reasons.

Those are all bad reasons to ascribe to a particular religion. If one was raised in it, they never had a chance to think for themselves before they decided what to believe. A person cannot become a Baha’i until they are 15 years old, which is considered the age when they can reason independently. Obviously being pressured or vulnerable does not bode well, because again, one never had a chance to think for themselves and decide what to believe. Deciding what to believe on emotion, such as wanting to be loved by God or Jesus, makes it impossible to be objective.

Sounds like your religion encourages people to be biased towards it.

No, it is exactly the opposite. My religion encourages people to investigate the truth for themselves, without bias.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Then it's not objectively true and we can conclude that religions do not describe actual reality.

Now, since I prefer to keep myself grounded in reality, I can conclude that your religion is objectively false.

All reality is not objective. Only the material reality is testable and measurable, the spiritual reality is not, but that does not mean it does not exist. Just because Faith is a personal thing that does not mean it is not real.

Go ahead and conclude whatever you want to. Obviously you do not understand what I am trying to say, it is like we speak a different language. Do you even want to understand or is this a game for you?

Of course. Convenient interpretation so you don't have to deal with things that don't work.

It works fine and if one has faith then they know exactly how it works.

If you do not want other people's opinions about what to believe, why do you read about it? Or listen to sermons?

We read about the religion because that is how we know what it teaches, its history, etc.

The Baha’i Faith has no preachers or sermons, since we have no clergy. Everyone is responsible for their own belief. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It would be like in school, students are all responsible to do their own homework.

So verification is impossible.

Verification of what God is doing or how God is affecting us in our heart or mind is impossible because nobody can ever know that.

If there is no event that can only come from a deity, then there is no need for a deity.

There might be a particular event that could only come from a deity but we cannot tie events in our lives back to the deity since we cannot ever know what the deity is doing.

Everything is dependent upon the deity. That is why we humans need a deity:

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice.But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250

You can read the whole chapter on free will on this link.
70: FREE WILL

How can it be rational if it's based on personal opinions?

It can be if you use your rational mind to form the opinions.

And yes, that is a bias against Christianity.

No, it is just me using my rational mind to dismiss it, after knowing what it teaches..

And if Koresh had been innocent of those assaults and was generally a nice guy, would you believe he was a messenger from God?

No, because there are many other qualifications to be a Messenger of God and Koresh did not have those qualifications.

You can make sure any effect from opinion is reduced by having other people come in. Since different people have different opinions, the effect of any one person's opinion will be diluted.

What you do not understand is that we do not want other people’s opinions because we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of "other people" as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

If we go by other people’s opinions it would not be our own belief, it would be someone else’s belief.

This is not a difficult concept and is used to great effect in science.

But religion is not science so verification of religious truth is a completely different process. It is called independent investigation of truth.

 

[rational experiences]

Living that truth in natural life, Father told me in NDE/AI statements, voice recorded shared mutual world male humanity experiences...that inter relates speaking and voices and the recording of a multi voiced O huge God earth experience, real.

It tells me everyday of all wrongs he ever achieved as scientist/inventor theist.

Who told me today to remind his own mind/self.....that originally before he designed science/theme/thesis and machine reaction controlled just by his owned male self....not any God....that he owned a lot of personal innocent spiritual reasoning.

As a self, conscious natural origin...human of spirit, a spiritual manifestation who came out of the eternal body to inherit the causes of change.

What our life story is about.

To be taught cause, and to never alter natural ever again as change...the spiritual truth...or else you inherit lower and lower life form.

Father said....when I was not a Father, but just an adult manifesting spiritual presence, first I was not actually physical...I had not belonged in life on Earth I was in a process of experiencing change.

And I did not want to exist in a lowered life spirit body/form of human.

Why he invented science to force change.

One of his considerations.....the reason why I was forced to be manifest...….did not include why the Garden Nature already existed....it could not speak on its own behalf.

His owned first mistake to claim he spoke on behalf of everything else...for he never did.

He said the mountain was gone....so to his belief, to rebuild and put back the mountain he would not have to be forced into manifested life.

So then went about rebuilding that mountain ^ as the pyramid.

A many and multi male owned spiritual memory is actually recorded as memory...where memory exists...RECORDED.

And DNA, and human life is not a recording or an image....it is real to its self ownership....as our life is sperm and an ovary.

To use adult first 2 parental memories is wrong...for we were never their life...yet their memories affect our life.

What I was taught in spiritual life self human investigation.

If science today compares sperm and an ovary to a human adult life body, we will be destroyed...for that is what they do when they study bio o cell existence yet took that cell to study from a whole living human life form.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer

It's rather a moot question, since God exists and so do atheists.

God allows imperfections, quite simply. Besides, most imperfections exist because there is something advantageous about them. Atheists are wonderful skeptics -- they keep us honest.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's rather a moot question, since God exists and so do atheists.

So, your answer would be "yes."

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know what happened. I do not call people liars.

Do you believe people lie? So back to Joseph Smith, the story goes that an angel told him where find some golden plates and some special spectacles so he could translate the writings on them. The story on those plates told of Jesus coming to the North American continent. It that true? If that false? Or, we don't know? If it's true then we should read that book.

Another book, the New Testament, it says Jesus rose from the dead. Is that true or false? Baha'is say not true... literally. He rose "spiritually", so there was no lie involved. Is that true or a lie?

In the Jewish Bible, it says Isaac was taken to be sacrificed by Abraham. Is that a lie? No way to make this "symbolically" true. But Baha'is don't believe it is true. Somebody lied about who Abraham took to be sacrificed. Either the Jews that say it was Isaac. Or, the Baha'is that say it was Ishmael. Either way, somebody's Scriptures are wrong.

You often say they are just "stories". Fine, I'll go with that. Then it can it be filled with lies and exaggerations of truth. One of the things that both Baha'is and atheists can agree on... God didn't create the Universe in 6 days. He didn't walk in the Garden with Adam. He didn't flood the world and kill every living thing except those on Noah's Ark. He didn't, for the first time, place a rainbow in the sky. He didn't stop the Sun from moving for a whole day. He didn't speak from heaven. He didn't raise Jesus physically from the dead. So, all these stories about God aren't real. They are fictional. If someone, a man, wrote them down and told everyone that those things really happened, what would we call that man? A liar. And, if the things that this God supposed did are not true, then why believe that this God this person writes about is true?

For Baha'is you need this God. You can't see him. You can't hear him. But, because a man says he can and does speak with him you believe him. But still, all these other men that wrote about this God and other Gods, got the story wrong, or embellished it, anthropomorphized that God, or just flat out made up Gods that only the believers of that particular religion believe are real. The smart thing to do is to doubt the validity of all these stories and to doubt any man who says he has spoken to God.

Some good stuff in the writings? Sure. Some kind of dumb stuff too? Yes. So why not read them as myths of ancient people? Which would seem like a sensible and easy thing to do with all the ancient religious writings, but what can we do about the Baha'i writings? All we can do is ask some hard questions, and see what kind of answers that Baha'is give. And also observe the Baha'is themselves. Are they reflecting the values and the attitudes of a person that truly believes these writings? Of course, a Baha'i can always use the excuse of being a work in progress. But, at some point, the Baha'i is going to have to start reflecting love, humility, and wanting to bring peace and harmony between people. When is that point going to come?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you believe people lie? So back to Joseph Smith, the story goes that an angel told him where find some golden plates and some special spectacles so he could translate the writings on them. The story on those plates told of Jesus coming to the North American continent. It that true? If that false? Or, we don't know? If it's true then we should read that book.

Yes, some people lie, but I do not know if Joseph Smith was lying, he could have simply been incorrect or delusional.

No, I do not believe that Jesus is coming to North America, but other people are free to believe that if they want to.

Another book, the New Testament, it says Jesus rose from the dead. Is that true or false? Baha'is say not true... literally. He rose "spiritually", so there was no lie involved. Is that true or a lie?

No, I do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, so I believe that is false.

That does not mean it was lie, as there are other possibilities. the ones who wrote the NT could have been telling a fictional story for some reason unbeknownst to anyone, or they could have been deluded.

You often say they are just "stories". Fine, I'll go with that.
They are fictional. If someone, a man, wrote them down and told everyone that those things really happened, what would we call that man? A liar. And, if the things that this God supposed did are not true, then why believe that this God this person writes about is true?

No, we would say that men intended that the stories were allegorical and many people mistook them as literal. Any logical person would realize that the stories have nothing to do with whether God exists or not, because men wrote the stories about God.

For Baha'is you need this God. You can't see him. You can't hear him. But, because a man says he can and does speak with him you believe him.

Baha'is do not need this God, everybody needs this God.

But still, all these other men that wrote about this God and other Gods, got the story wrong, or embellished it, anthropomorphized that God, or just flat out made up Gods that only the believers of that particular religion believe are real. The smart thing to do is to doubt the validity of all these stories and to doubt any man who says he has spoken to God.

The smart thing to do, Imo, is to shelve the Bible, realizing that the Dispensation with which it was associated has been abrogated. The smart thing to do is to move on to the present age. Here is what Baha'u'llah wrote that indicates what He thinks of discussing ancient scriptures.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Why is it a grievous transgression? because the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God Passes By, p. 100

But you can Do whatever you want to Do. You can continue talking about the Bible till hell freezes over. I consider it an utter waste of time, but it is your business what you do.

All we can do is ask some hard questions, and see what kind of answers that Baha'is give.
And also observe the Baha'is themselves. Are they reflecting the values and the attitudes of a person that truly believes these writings? Of course, a Baha'i can always use the excuse of being a work in progress. But, at some point, the Baha'i is going to have to start reflecting love, humility, and wanting to bring peace and harmony between people. When is that point going to come?

How do you know that the Baha'is are not already doing that? As bahaullah sais, we are not to look at the faults of other people, we are to look only at ourselves.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[CG Didymus]

The smart thing to do, Imo, is to shelve the Bible, realizing that the Dispensation with which it was associated has been abrogated. The smart thing to do is to move on to the present age.

Not yet, things are happening that fit very well into the Revelation story. I don't see any indication in that story that Christ, or the Lamb, returns, and things continue to go bad. Since things are going bad, then maybe Christ hasn't returned.

Since Baha'is believe he has already returned and that it is up to us to apply his teachings to create a world filled with peace and harmony, then Baha'is should be promoting their beliefs. But, it is necessary for them to interact with people of all the other religions. And since the claim of the Baha'i Faith is that all the major religions have been a progression that has brought us to the revelation of Baha'u'llah, then Baha'is will be asked to show how Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all those end time prophecies and prophecies about who will return and when.

But, as far as "shelving" the Bible, lots of people already have. Many have already equated it with ancient myth. But, that means that the Gods talked about in those stories are also seen as mythical. Baha'is say "no". God is real even though some of the stories about him are "embellished", allegorical or whatever. So Baha'is bring those stories back and retell them in a way that makes the God of those stories real. So then, are Baha'is telling the truth? Does everything in the Baha'i writings make sense? To you maybe, to others no.