If God existed, would there be any atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Not yet, things are happening that fit very well into the Revelation story. I don't see any indication in that story that Christ, or the Lamb, returns, and things continue to go bad. Since things are going bad, then maybe Christ hasn't returned.

You can wait with the Christians but it is very sad that you would bet your eternal life on the revelation "story" especially since Jesus never promised to return but rather said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Besides, unless you want to renege and now say you believe in the bodily resurrection, there is no way the same Jesus is going to return in the same body because He can't, if His body died. Or maybe you want to wait and see if someone else comes and fulfills the OT and NT prophecies. You will be up the creek without a paddle because Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all of those prophecies, as was clearly demonstrated in Thief in the Night by William Sears.

But you can keep questioning Sears till the day you die if you want to, as if you could ever know what he knew after seven years of research. It is no skin off my nose or off God's nose, because God does not need anyone's belief.

Since Baha'is believe he has already returned and that it is up to us to apply his teachings to create a world filled with peace and harmony, then Baha'is should be promoting their beliefs.

I fully agree, and I tell other Baha'is the same thing.

But, it is necessary for them to interact with people of all the other religions. And since the claim of the Baha'i Faith is that all the major religions have been a progression that has brought us to the revelation of Baha'u'llah, then Baha'is will be asked to show how Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all those end time prophecies and prophecies about who will return and when.

And when we are asked, we will tell them they can read Thief in the Night by William Sears.
If they care enough to know if Christ has returned they will at least read the book, but since very few Christians even bother, you can do the math.

But, as far as "shelving" the Bible, lots of people already have. Many have already equated it with ancient myth.

So why haven't you joined them?

But, that means that the Gods talked about in those stories are also seen as mythical. Baha'is say "no". God is real even though some of the stories about him are "embellished", allegorical or whatever. So Baha'is bring those stories back and retell them in a way that makes the God of those stories real

No, Baha'is do not bring those stories back and retell them in a way that makes the God of those stories real. the God in the stories is not real. Here is what Bahais believe about God, and now you tell me how on earth the God in those stories can be real?

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

God in the Bahá'í Faith​

So then, are Baha'is telling the truth? Does everything in the Baha'i writings make sense? To you maybe, to others no.

I guess you mean was Baha'u'llah telling the truth?

It makes sense to the Baha'is but not to others and the reason is drop dead obvious... Most people do not even bother to think about the Baha'i Faith claims because adherents to the older religions are clinging tenaciously to their beliefs and waiting for Jesus or the Messiah of their own religion, and nonbelievers do not believe there are any true Messengers of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not yet, things are happening that fit very well into the Revelation story.

But everything is happening according to what Baha'u'llah predicted150 years ago. The prophecies He made are verifiable because they are in His Writings, so any logical person would look at those and match them up with what is going on in the world today, especially this year, they would not be looking at unverifiable ambiguous prophecies made in the Bible far validation of who Baha'u'llah was..... Wake up and small the coffee as my mother used to say.

“This question of the union of the white and the black is very important,” He warns, “for if it is not realized, erelong great difficulties will arise, and harmful results will follow.” “If this matter remaineth without change,” is yet another warning, “enmity will be increased day by day, and the final result will be hardship and may end in bloodshed.”
The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 39

 

[rational experiences]

Yes, some people lie, but I do not know if Joseph Smith was lying, he could have simply been incorrect or delusional.

No, I do not believe that Jesus is coming to North America, but other people are free to believe that if they want to.

No, I do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, so I believe that is false.

That does not mean it was lie, as there are other possibilities. the ones who wrote the NT could have been telling a fictional story for some reason unbeknownst to anyone, or they could have been deluded.

No, we would say that men intended that the stories were allegorical and many people mistook them as literal. Any logical person would realize that the stories have nothing to do with whether God exists or not, because men wrote the stories about God.

Baha'is do not need this God, everybody needs this God.

The smart thing to do, Imo, is to shelve the Bible, realizing that the Dispensation with which it was associated has been abrogated. The smart thing to do is to move on to the present age. Here is what Baha'u'llah wrote that indicates what He thinks of discussing ancient scriptures.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Why is it a grievous transgression? because the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God Passes By, p. 100

But you can Do whatever you want to Do. You can continue talking about the Bible till hell freezes over. I consider it an utter waste of time, but it is your business what you do.

How do you know that the Baha'is are not already doing that? As bahaullah sais, we are not to look at the faults of other people, we are to look only at ourselves.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

Practice….human being male beginnings in the sciences imposed beginning and end by a formula to own FORCE to change condition about existence.

Existence exists, for it does.
Life is existing, so it is surviving.

To write a document against science was to prove that science made our life surviving die before its natural event...100 years old C evaluation.

Jesus arose from the dead says science. Meaning that when human male DNA was being life attacked removed by his own human male scientific designed model to remove existence, to own invention, then as he died irradiated crown of thorns attack...which I lived a version experience of as a female....then he saw his male genetic lived spirits arise as images out of the burnt gas mass water/oxygen use and microbes that he was living inside of.

I saw that event my own self, the atmosphere outside where I was sitting as I was being burnt prickled brain attacked, brown and sometimes black wisping smoke would appear, then cooling images would emerge...and then disappear.

Some were just of human heads...seeing a male used his head/mind to think science formulas....hence I knew what it meant by experience of it.

As I also saw Elvis and Michael Jackson images, I therefore realized that human owned modern day communication systems was causing it.

And of course science is doing atmospheric experiments so cannot lie about that cause....just as they did it before.

Cooling of that burning does not put the atmospheric body back to its origins, for it was not previously burnt. Hence was is sacrificed is gone. Why the title the atmosphere is still Jesus Christ...is proven and lived today by the amount of humans attacked by evil spirit manifestations and the UFO effect.

If science wants to quibble that we did not originally come from a spiritual higher place...then why do evil spirits manifest in human science conjuring of them?

 

[CG Didymus]

You can wait with the Christians but it is very sad that you would bet your eternal life on the revelation "story" especially since Jesus never promised to return but rather said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

I'm waiting for you too. Let's see the Baha'is do all the things they said they would. And why keep bringing up "It is finished"? That's a million miles out of context and seems to be your favorite NT quote. And any quote that suggests that Jesus is coming back you discount it.

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.​

But everything is happening according to what Baha'u'llah predicted150 years ago.

A king and other rulers that give their "allegiance" to one common Revelation? This sounds like Baha'i law is going to be the law of the whole world. Is that the prophecy?

In 1873 Baháʼu'lláh wrote in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:[23]
"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom...

"In the Lawh-i-Ra'ís He actually and categorically prophesies the rise of such a king: "Erelong will God raise up from among the kings one who will aid His loved ones. He, verily, encompasseth all things. He will instill in the hearts the love of His loved ones. This, indeed, is irrevocably decreed by One Who is the Almighty, the Beneficent." In the Ridvánu'l-ʻAdl, wherein the virtue of justice is exalted, He makes a parallel prediction: "Erelong will God make manifest on earth kings who will recline on the couches of justice, and will rule amongst men even as they rule their own selves. They, indeed, are among the choicest of My creatures in the entire creation.""
(Baháʼu'lláh, 1868, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in Promised Day is Come
​

Shoghi Effendi wrote:[4]
"The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baháʼu'lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded…"
"A world federal system, ruling the whole earth and exercising unchallengeable authority over its unimaginably vast resources, blending and embodying the ideals of both the East and the West, liberated from the curse of war and its miseries, and bent on the exploitation of all the available sources of energy on the surface of the planet, a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice, whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation—such is the goal towards which humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of life, is moving."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfoldment of World Civilization, 1936)​

 

[rational experiences]

I'm waiting for you too. Let's see the Baha'is do all the things they said they would. And why keep bringing up "It is finished"? That's a million miles out of context and seems to be your favorite NT quote. And any quote that suggests that Jesus is coming back you discount it.

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.​

A king and other rulers that give their "allegiance" to one common Revelation? This sounds like Baha'i law is going to be the law of the whole world. Is that the prophecy?

In 1873 Baháʼu'lláh wrote in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:[23]
"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom...

"In the Lawh-i-Ra'ís He actually and categorically prophesies the rise of such a king: "Erelong will God raise up from among the kings one who will aid His loved ones. He, verily, encompasseth all things. He will instill in the hearts the love of His loved ones. This, indeed, is irrevocably decreed by One Who is the Almighty, the Beneficent." In the Ridvánu'l-ʻAdl, wherein the virtue of justice is exalted, He makes a parallel prediction: "Erelong will God make manifest on earth kings who will recline on the couches of justice, and will rule amongst men even as they rule their own selves. They, indeed, are among the choicest of My creatures in the entire creation.""
(Baháʼu'lláh, 1868, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in Promised Day is Come
​

Shoghi Effendi wrote:[4]
"The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baháʼu'lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded…"
"A world federal system, ruling the whole earth and exercising unchallengeable authority over its unimaginably vast resources, blending and embodying the ideals of both the East and the West, liberated from the curse of war and its miseries, and bent on the exploitation of all the available sources of energy on the surface of the planet, a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice, whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation—such is the goal towards which humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of life, is moving."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Unfoldment of World Civilization, 1936)​

"LORD" in the KJV Bible. 6,782 Instances - Page 1 of 227 Expand or Limit Your Search Results: ... These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth …

Lord Jesus states that if you want to be sacrificed then it comes swiftly or quickly...for Messengers of God come from the stars...as stone bodies that are forced to fall to Earth due to spatial heating by science on God O Earth as it travels through space.

Change and heat spatial cold radiation metal mass in radiation science, it gets sucked back out into space and heats up other bodies also....asides from attacking Earth fusion/gases...what science in relativity always knew....science uses EXTRA radiation to do converting/removal science.

Beginning and End, a formula.

Creation never owned a beginning and an end it was existence itself...why science in a human life is a coercive liar...that does not stop coercing and lying about the want of removal of our Planet form.

 

[Tiberius]

It means it has been verified by me.

That isn't really verified though.

Correct. I have verified it because I have demonstrated to myself that my belief is true, accurate and justified.

verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified verify means - Google Search

But you haven't made sure, since you have not done anything to eliminate any effects your personal biases could have had. And you haven't demonstrated it.

Those are all bad reasons to ascribe to a particular religion. If one was raised in it, they never had a chance to think for themselves before they decided what to believe. A person cannot become a Baha’i until they are 15 years old, which is considered the age when they can reason independently. Obviously being pressured or vulnerable does not bode well, because again, one never had a chance to think for themselves and decide what to believe. Deciding what to believe on emotion, such as wanting to be loved by God or Jesus, makes it impossible to be objective.

Once again, if you haven't had your conclusions reviewed by others, there's no way for you to know that your emotions didn't play some part in you reaching the conclusions you reached.

No, it is exactly the opposite. My religion encourages people to investigate the truth for themselves, without bias.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

This would be convincing if everyone reached the same conclusion about religion but that doesn't happen.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

I don't know if works having an effect and transforming the lives of people is proof of prophethood. I mean, Star Trek has played a HUGE part in shaping me to be the person I am today, yet no one would propose that the writers and creators of the shows are holy prophets of God.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

And the only way to make sure that your own superstition and imagination don't influence you is by getting your work peer reviewed, since it is unlikely that others will have the same superstitions that you have.

All reality is not objective. Only the material reality is testable and measurable, the spiritual reality is not, but that does not mean it does not exist. Just because Faith is a personal thing that does not mean it is not real.

Yes, reality is objective. A person's own particular brand of faith may be a subjective opinion, but that they have that particular brand of it is still objective fact. And there is no evidence of a spiritual world.

Go ahead and conclude whatever you want to. Obviously you do not understand what I am trying to say, it is like we speak a different language. Do you even want to understand or is this a game for you?

Just showing that the logic you are using can be used to reach other conclusions as well.

The Baha’i Faith has no preachers or sermons, since we have no clergy. Everyone is responsible for their own belief. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It would be like in school, students are all responsible to do their own homework.

I understand it just fine. I'm not debating the structure of your religion.

Verification of what God is doing or how God is affecting us in our heart or mind is impossible because nobody can ever know that.

You need to make up your mind. You repeatedly claim you have verified your faith, then you repeatedly claim that verification of faith is impossible. Which is it?

There might be a particular event that could only come from a deity but we cannot tie events in our lives back to the deity since we cannot ever know what the deity is doing.

We don't need to know what they deity is doing. If we see some event that is, according to all known laws of nature, impossible, and all investigation shows no indication of a naturalisthen we can conclude that a deity must be responsible.

Everything is dependent upon the deity. That is why we humans need a deity:

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice.But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250

You can read the whole chapter on free will on this link.
70: FREE WILL

That seems rather circular, claiming that humans depend on a deity in order to show there is a deity.

It can be if you use your rational mind to form the opinions.

But since there's no way to be sure that your emotional mind has not had any influence, you can never be sure, can you?

I mean, there are plenty of Christians who believe they can rationally prove their faith, but you disagree with them, and they are just as convinced they are being rational as you are.

No, because there are many other qualifications to be a Messenger of God and Koresh did not have those qualifications.

Can you provide a full list please?

What you do not understand is that we do not want other people’s opinions because we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of "other people" as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do.

If we go by other people’s opinions it would not be our own belief, it would be someone else’s belief.

What you don't understand is that peer review REMOVES opinions.

But religion is not science so verification of religious truth is a completely different process. It is called independent investigation of truth.

Sounds to me like it's just an excuse to avoid putting religion under scrutiny.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm waiting for you too. Let's see the Baha'is do all the things they said they would.

I do not know what you are waiting for me to do.

Look and you will see what the Baha’is are doing all over the world.

And why keep bringing up "It is finished"? That's a million miles out of context and seems to be your favorite NT quote. And any quote that suggests that Jesus is coming back you discount it.

It is not out of context at all because you keep saying that Jesus is coming back.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more in the world --- what about that do you NOT understand?

There is not one verse in the NT that says that the same man Jesus is coming back.

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Jesus did not write ANY of this:

The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as "John the Elder." According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, "because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10). Book Of Revelation | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS

So it is not Jesus saying He is coming back. It is the author imploring Jesus to come back - "Come, Lord Jesus."

A king and other rulers that give their "allegiance" to one common Revelation? This sounds like Baha'i law is going to be the law of the whole world. Is that the prophecy?

In 1873 Baháʼu'lláh wrote in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:[23]

No, it is not going to be the law of the whole world, not unless the whole world became Baha’is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Once again, if you haven't had your conclusions reviewed by others, there's no way for you to know that your emotions didn't play some part in you reaching the conclusions you reached.

Once again, personal beliefs should never be influenced by others because they have to be our beliefs and nobody else’s. That is what individual investigation of truth is all about.

That means that our beliefs should never be reviewed by others and subject to their opinions.

This would be convincing if everyone reached the same conclusion about religion but that doesn't happen.

Nobody will ever reach the same conclusion about religions because everyone has different desires and preferences.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

And the only way to make sure that your own superstition and imagination don't influence you is by getting your work peer reviewed, since it is unlikely that others will have the same superstitions that you have.

We will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the opinions of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot determine whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God according to what other people say about Him, their opinions of Him. This means that peer review is out of the question.

We have to investigate the truth for ourselves and make our own decision as to what to believe.

And there is no evidence of a spiritual world.

There is evidence of a spiritual world, but it would be unacceptable to you.

You need to make up your mind. You repeatedly claim you have verified your faith, then you repeatedly claim that verification of faith is impossible. Which is it?

All I have verified in my mind is that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. I have not verified that God is doing anything at all because I can never know what God is doing, nobody can.

That seems rather circular, claiming that humans depend on a deity in order to show there is a deity.

I am not trying to show that there is a deity by saying humans depend upon a deity. I simply believe that humans depend upon a deity.

But since there's no way to be sure that your emotional mind has not had any influence, you can never be sure, can you?

You can be if you are self-aware this know when you are thinking rationally vs. emotionally. However, emotions are not always a bad thing as long as we are aware of them. Being close to God in our heart requires emotions, not just beliefs.

I mean, there are plenty of Christians who believe they can rationally prove their faith, but you disagree with them, and they are just as convinced they are being rational as you are.

That drives my point home that everyone has to come to their own conclusions about what they believe and it has to be totally separate from what other people believe. If we have good personal boundaries it won’t matter to us what other people believe because we will be firm in our own faith.

Can you provide a full list please?

There is no such list, as a Messenger of God is not going for a job interview. He is either who He claims to be or not, and Baha’u’llah explained how we determine that.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence and proof. These are the main reasons I believe that He was a Messenger of God (what Baha’is normally refer to as a Manifestation of God).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities, human and divine)
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

What you don't understand is that peer review REMOVES opinions.

We do not want to remove our own opinion because that is what makes it our belief.

Sounds to me like it's just an excuse to avoid putting religion under scrutiny.

We put our religion under scrutiny when we fully investigate it for ourselves.
We can also eliminate personal biases by this method. This short video explains how that is accomplished

 

[CG Didymus]

Once again, if you haven't had your conclusions reviewed by others, there's no way for you to know that your emotions didn't play some part in you reaching the conclusions you reached.

And since some people drop out of the Baha'i Faith, then that shows that they learned some more things later that got them to change their mind.

This would be convincing if everyone reached the same conclusion about religion but that doesn't happen.

And once a person becomes convinced that a religion is true, more stuff is thrown at them that they expected to believe. Like a Christian that is taught that the Bible is the literal word of God, then they expected to believe in the 6 day creation story. While a Baha'i is taught that God used evolution, so the Bible story is believed to be metaphorical. Just little things... little words on a page and a person's outlook becomes so different.

I don't know if works having an effect and transforming the lives of people is proof of prophethood. I mean, Star Trek has played a HUGE part in shaping me to be the person I am today, yet no one would propose that the writers and creators of the shows are holy prophets of God.

Scientology changes lives. AA changes lives. Prison changes lives. And movies and TV and music? For sure. I was literally born again after watching an episode of "South Park". All reality suddenly became crystal clear.

 

[CG Didymus]

A king and other rulers that give their "allegiance" to one common Revelation? This sounds like Baha'i law is going to be the law of the whole world. Is that the prophecy?
In 1873 Baháʼu'lláh wrote in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:[23]
"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom...

Look and you will see what the Baha’is are doing all over the world.

I was with them and saw first hand what they were doing at Mass Teaching Projects. I saw Baha'i friends get in trouble with the leaders of their LSA's. The chairman was supper authoritative and they were ultra-liberal. I saw a Baha'i woman stand up and start reading, yes reading, the Peace Statement at an ecumenical gathering. I've seen Baha'i gather at firesides time after time with only one or two "seekers". But most of the time with only Baha'is. Things are moving at a snails pace. Where's the Mass Teaching Projects today? The ones I went to were 50 some years ago. Where is the "entry by troops"? Yes, I'm watching.

It is not out of context at all because you keep saying that Jesus is coming back.

I say it is out of context, because you only quote a verse here and a verse there. Which some people call "Cherry Picking". You try and make that and one other verse mean that Jesus isn't ever coming back.

No more in the world --- what about that do you NOT understand?

And what is that supposed to mean? That I'm a stupid idiot? Grow up %&*#$ You who call others "rude" and "arrogant".
It is just as easy to say that his work is finished alludes to it being the time for him to be crucified. But then he rises again, so he did come back and implies that he is coming again later.

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So what don't you want to understand about "I, Jesus"? Then he says...

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

That is not the writer saying that. That is supposedly Jesus. Say it's BS. Fine, it could be. But that and "The Lamb" that was slain all imply Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

We put our religion under scrutiny when we fully investigate it for ourselves.
We can also eliminate personal biases by this method. This short video explains how that is accomplished

And every Baha'i, including you, has "fully" investigated all religions? It's more like... "You, in all the other religions, ask yourself, are all the things your religion teaches you the truth? Examine them. Test them. Read them carefully and you'll see that they are wrong. Things misunderstood, things added in, things taken too literally. Then come and examine the Baha'i Faith and see how sensible it is and how it speaks of the truth about God."

 

[Trailblazer]

I was with them and saw first hand what they were doing at Mass Teaching Projects. I saw Baha'i friends get in trouble with the leaders of their LSA's. The chairman was supper authoritative and they were ultra-liberal. I saw a Baha'i woman stand up and start reading, yes reading, the Peace Statement at an ecumenical gathering. I've seen Baha'i gather at firesides time after time with only one or two "seekers". But most of the time with only Baha'is. Things are moving at a snails pace. Where's the Mass Teaching Projects today? The ones I went to were 50 some years ago. Where is the "entry by troops"? Yes, I'm watching.

How is what happened 50 years ago relevant now? Most Baha’is never even talk about entry by troops anymore.

I say it is out of context, because you only quote a verse here and a verse there. Which some people call "Cherry Picking". You try and make that and one other verse mean that Jesus isn't ever coming back.

If you have ANY verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back, be my guest.

It is just as easy to say that his work is finished alludes to it being the time for him to be crucified. But then he rises again, so he did come back and implies that he is coming again later.

There is no “later” except in the minds of Christians.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

I am no more in the world

That means there cannot be a time when Jesus will be in the world again, unless:
a) Jesus was lying, or b) The NT is in error.

If it is b), then there is no reason to believe anything else Jesus purportedly said, not the resurrection stories, NADA.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

That is not the writer saying that. That is supposedly Jesus. Say it's BS. Fine, it could be.

Supposedly Jesus is not Jesus.

But that and "The Lamb" that was slain all imply Jesus.

No, as Tony has said, the Bab was also slain.

 

[Trailblazer]

And every Baha'i, including you, has "fully" investigated all religions? It's more like... "You, in all the other religions, ask yourself, are all the things your religion teaches you the truth? Examine them. Test them. You'll read them to be wrong. Things misunderstood, things added in, things taken too literally. Then come and examine the Baha'i Faith and see how sensible it is and how it speaks of the truth about God."

There is nothing in the Baha'i Writings about investigating ALL the religions.
I do not need to investigate older religions anymore than I need to go to a graveyard to look for living people.

I did not need to investigate all the men in town before I decided who to marry. Ever heard of love at first sight? I know a Baha'i who has been a Baha'i for about 60 years who only read one page of the Writings and then he became a Baha'i.

Some things are just drop dead obvious, but they are not obvious to everyone. Some of us are just lucky.
I am sorry you are having to do so much work.

 

[CG Didymus]

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Jesus did not write ANY of this:

The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as "John the Elder." According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, "because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10). Book Of Revelation | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS

So it is not Jesus saying He is coming back. It is the author imploring Jesus to come back - "Come, Lord Jesus."

So what don't you want to understand about "I, Jesus"?

That is not the writer saying that. That is supposedly Jesus. Say it's BS. Fine, it could be. But that and "The Lamb" that was slain all imply Jesus.

If you have ANY verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back, be my guest.

And you wiggle out of them.

Supposedly Jesus is not Jesus.

I said it is "supposedly" Jesus. The writer of Revelation directly quotes someone, that someone says "I, Jesus" and that he "is coming soon." Then the writer says "Come, Lord Jesus."

No, as Tony has said, the Bab was also slain.

In the context of Revelation no way is the "Lamb that was slain" The Bab. I don't even think that the second "Woe" is The Bab. The Lamb that was slain is either Jesus or in some way Baha'u'llah. But the description best fits Jesus. Like Bird 123 has told you, you are in a box... The Baha'i box. Everything has to fit into your Baha'i box. Anyway you can discount what it says, you do. Which is fine. Every religion that tries to say they are a continuation of a previous religion does that. Christians do to the Jewish Bible. Islam does it to the NT and the Bible. And, Baha'is do it to all religions. Fine. But then don't be surprised when people call you out for ignoring parts of the Scriptures of the other religions and reinterpreting, to suit your needs, other parts, taking things, that hardly anyone believes to be accurately depicting history, and saying that the writers meant those things to be symbolic? Come on now. Why can't they just plain and simply be ancient people fabricating mythical events?

Like the parting of the sea. It has great meaning for the Jews. Their God saved them from the Egyptian army. What is the symbolic Baha'is version? The Egyptian army symbolizes something? Trapped at the waters edge symbolizes something? They cross on dry land, but the Egyptian army drowns? I'm sure you can come up with some elaborate symbolic explanation, but really... the ancient people were supposed to figure that out? Come on. Rather, why can't it simply be a mythological story handed down from generation to generation that tells of how they were once slaves but their God led them out of Egypt and brought them to the promised land.

What Baha'is are doing isn't much different than what Christians have done. Saying... "This is our beliefs and we're sticking to them." Conservative Christians say, "The Bible is literally true. What ever it says is the truth." Then Baha'is say, "Whatever our religion says is the truth, therefore, what ever the Christians think they know about the Bible... is wrong." And then you go out of your way to find reasons why the Christians can't be right. Like repeating over and over again, "It is finished." That you take as being "literally" true and an accurate quote from Jesus? But, anything that doesn't fit into your Baha'i box of beliefs, you find a reason to discount it? Great, but you are not showing how all religions are "one". You are only doing what so many other religions have done, reinterpreting the other religions to neatly fit into the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

And every Baha'i, including you, has "fully" investigated all religions?

There is nothing in the Baha'i Writings about investigating ALL the religions.

That came from the video you posted. So where did it come from? But there should be somewhat of a thorough investigation. Or, is it okay to just do a partial investigation of truth? Of course the reality is that no one can "fully" investigate every religion. But, if only a partial investigation is done, then the person is going to learn things about their religion and things about other religions that they hadn't considered before. Some people will take this new information and take another look at their religion and maybe disagree with what their religion says. Others, since they've already convinced themselves that this new religion is the truth, will find ways to justify their beliefs. Christians do it for sure. But, I get the feeling it happens to Baha'is too.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you wiggle out of them.

There is nothing to wiggle out of because there are no such verses.

What Baha'is are doing isn't much different than what Christians have done. Saying... "This is our beliefs and we're sticking to them."

Why is that okay for Christians to say that, but not okay for Baha'is to say?.
Why the double standard?

But, anything that doesn't fit into your Baha'i box of beliefs, you find a reason to discount it?

Baha'is do not have a box of beliefs anymore than Christians or any other religion has a box of beliefs.

If it contradicts the Baha'i beliefs we reject it, just as Christians reject anything that contradicts their beliefs.
Why the double standard?

Great, but you are not showing how all religions are "one".

"Religion is one" only means that all religions came from one Source, God.....

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

We are not trying to show that all religions are one and the same, because they are not one and the same.
As the passage above says, religions differ from one another because of the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.

You are only doing what so many other religions have done, reinterpreting the other religions to neatly fit into the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith.

No, we are not doing that because we do not need other religions to fit into the Baha'i Faith, since the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion of God that stands on its own merit.

 

[Trailblazer]

That came from the video you posted. So where did it come from? But there should be somewhat of a thorough investigation. Or, is it okay to just do a partial investigation of truth?

The video did not say we have to investigate all the religions to determine if they are true.
I went back and listened to that video again, and here are the highlights of what he said:

• He said that nobody should follow religious beliefs just because it was what their family believes or because it is a long held tradition of a certain religion.

• He said our belief should not be something that we heard from another and have to believe on faith but rather it should be something that has been thoroughly examined and has been found to be solid enough to build a foundation of beliefs from. He said that once a person finds a real solid truth they can be completely confident in that truth.

• He said that truth is a truth is a truth so it cannot be contradicted by another truth.

• He said there reality is only one reality and we just need to discover the truth of this reality.

• He said that we should call into question any of the previously beliefs that we held dear.

• He said that we have to take everything we have been taught and put them into a box and call it the box of unproven beliefs, and then we have to carefully examine that belief to see where it came from -- does it makes sense logically, does it agree with other truths, do I have emotions that are informing this belief, a prejudice or past experience?

Since I never had a previous religion, much of what he said does not apply to me. He said that once a person finds a real solid truth they can be completely confident in that truth. That is what happened to me when I found the Baha'i Faith. Once one has found a house that is their dream house, the one that is the perfect fit for them, do they continue looking at other houses with the real estate agent?

Of course the reality is that no one can "fully" investigate every religion. But, if only a partial investigation is done, then the person is going to learn things about their religion and things about other religions that they hadn't considered before.

Indeed, I have learned many things about other religions I had not known or considered before, and this further confirms my believe that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age.

Some people will take this new information and take another look at their religion and maybe disagree with what their religion says.

They might, if they discover something about their religion that does not add up, as Bird likes to say. I have not discovered anything about the Baha'i Faith that does not add up, after examining it with a fine tooth comb day and night for seven years. I sure wish I could find something because I'd rather be an atheist. My husband knows that only too well as we have these conversations on a regular basis. There is nothing fun or easy about being a Baha'i.

Others, since they've already convinced themselves that this new religion is the truth, will find ways to justify their beliefs. Christians do it for sure. But, I get the feeling it happens to Baha'is too.

Nobody needs to justify their beliefs to anyone else, they simply have to determine that their beliefs are justified. That is what independent investigation of truth is all about, justifying our beliefs for ourselves.

 

[Tiberius]

Once again, personal beliefs should never be influenced by others because they have to be our beliefs and nobody else’s. That is what individual investigation of truth is all about.

That means that our beliefs should never be reviewed by others and subject to their opinions.

But when it comes to the nature of reality, then we must do everything that we can to remove any possible influence from our own opinions, and peer review is the best way to do that.

So, let me ask you this...

Do you think finding your beliefs is an investigation into the true nature of the universe, or is it just a personal opinion?

Nobody will ever reach the same conclusion about religions because everyone has different desires and preferences.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

But if religious belief ever hopes to be taken seriously as a description about the way the universe really is, then it can't just present itself as our own personal desires and preferences. Because the true nature about the universe doesn't give a damn about your desire and opinions and what you'd prefer to be true.

We will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the opinions of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot determine whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God according to what other people say about Him, their opinions of Him. This means that peer review is out of the question.

We have to investigate the truth for ourselves and make our own decision as to what to believe.

Which will only leave us with an opinion which has no bearing on whether whatever religion you believe actually describes the universe.

There is evidence of a spiritual world, but it would be unacceptable to you.

Can it be tested and verified, or is it another one of those things where you just decide if you want it to be true?

All I have verified in my mind is that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. I have not verified that God is doing anything at all because I can never know what God is doing, nobody can.

We need to decide exactly what is meant by "verified." Because you seem to be using two different definitions based on whether you are talking about your subjective opinion or an objective fact.

You can be if you are self-aware this know when you are thinking rationally vs. emotionally. However, emotions are not always a bad thing as long as we are aware of them. Being close to God in our heart requires emotions, not just beliefs.

But how do you know that you aren't being influenced by your emotional mind, you just THINK it's your rational mind?

That drives my point home that everyone has to come to their own conclusions about what they believe and it has to be totally separate from what other people believe. If we have good personal boundaries it won’t matter to us what other people believe because we will be firm in our own faith.

But it's a terrible way to get an objective truth about the universe, isn't it?

There is no such list, as a Messenger of God is not going for a job interview. He is either who He claims to be or not, and Baha’u’llah explained how we determine that.

That sounds incredibly unreliable.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence and proof. These are the main reasons I believe that He was a Messenger of God (what Baha’is normally refer to as a Manifestation of God).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities, human and divine)
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

I can't say much, as I'm not very familiar with this religion, but it seems a little circular. And in any case, no different to anything else lots of other religions have said.

We do not want to remove our own opinion because that is what makes it our belief.

When it comes to understanding what is FACT, I don't want belief.

We put our religion under scrutiny when we fully investigate it for ourselves.

But if it is YOUR religion, then you are going to be biased by the fact that you are already invested in it.

We can also eliminate personal biases by this method. This short video explains how that is accomplished

As the video says, "A truth is a truth is a truth."

If you genuinely believed that, I don't see why you would be against peer review. Objective facts have nothing to fear from investigation.

 

[Tiberius]

And once a person becomes convinced that a religion is true, more stuff is thrown at them that they expected to believe. Like a Christian that is taught that the Bible is the literal word of God, then they expected to believe in the 6 day creation story. While a Baha'i is taught that God used evolution, so the Bible story is believed to be metaphorical. Just little things... little words on a page and a person's outlook becomes so different.

Confirmation bias. I've seen it happen.

There's a game I've seen, where you have one person who comes up with some simple rules about three numbers. Maybe each number has to be one more than the number before it. Then there's a second person who says three numbers, and the first person has to say whether it fits the rule they've come up with.

But very often, once the second person thinks they've figured out what the rule is, they'll only provide numbers that MATCH what they think the rule is. If they say, 1, 2, 3, then they might think the rule is that each number is the previous number plus one. So next they'll say, 2, 3, 4, and the game master will say it fits the rule. Then next they'll say 10, 11, 12, and the game master will again say that it fits the rule. After a few goes like this, the contestant will confidently say that the rule is that each number is the previous number plus one. And the game master will say they are wrong. The rule is actually that each number has to be larger than the previous number, doesn't matter by how much.

Now, if the contestant had tried to FALSIFY their hypothesis and said 1, 2, 5, then they would have found that the game master says that this ALSO fits the rule, proving their hypothesis wrong! But people rarely do this. Because people only like to hear things that agree with what they've decided on, they don't like things that prove them wrong. But often, those things are the most important.

Scientology changes lives. AA changes lives. Prison changes lives. And movies and TV and music? For sure. I was literally born again after watching an episode of "South Park". All reality suddenly became crystal clear.

Just out of curiosity, what episode was it, and how did it change you?

 

[CG Didymus]

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me...
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

There is nothing to wiggle out of because there are no such verses.

You don't call what you do these verses "wiggling"? Revelation might be all BS, but there it is. It is in the NT, so what are we going to do with it? Baha'is use parts of it to show that Muhammad and Ali are the Two Witnesses. That Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah are the Three Woes... But they don't say who the Lamb is? Christians do, the Lamb is Jesus. Then supposedly Jesus cuts into this vision and says that he is coming soon. The author recognizes it to be Jesus speaking and says "Come, Lord Jesus."

Tons and tons of interpretation problems, and this is just one book in one religion. Baha'is have to do this with all the major religions. And then there are the many religious beliefs ignored by Baha'is. Where did they come from? Like the religion of the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Chinese, the Greeks etc.