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If God existed would there be proof?

setarcos

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
PureX said:
The "singularity" is a complete fiction. A made up idea and term (like "God") that we apply to the most profound and unfathomable of all mysteries.
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Um...how are you defining your singularity? They do exist. Scientists have been able to corollate some singularities with observable reality, as in Black Holes for instance.
 
ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
setarcos said:
I didn't say the universe "poofed" into existence from nothing. Since time seemingly was shown to have a "beginning", it consequently didn't exist before it began and with that neither did the universe of matter and energy. However, the time may very well have been given a beginning by something. Something that preexisted time and this universe. Hawking had to invent what he called imaginary time in an attempt to dispute something from nothing without referring to a creator like being. Of course the religious folks call this preexistent "thing" which started time and the universe off...God. So, believe in imaginary time or in God? Seems a pretty close race to me.:shrug:
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First, sorry. I didn't recognize that you were a different poster. But also, the poofing in to existence is the context of the argument.
Second, imaginary time was postulated for the same reason as string "theory". To examine possibilities. It was not designed to refute God. And wouldn't be able to do so. See God of the Gaps.
 
setarcos

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
ratiocinator said:
Jolly good, you'll have no difficulty providing it, then. I await this astounding and ground-breaking proof with interest. No doubt fame and fortune await you if you manage to prove something that has never been proved in all of human history.
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Lol...you might be waiting awhile. Since proof of a transcendental being by us would require transcendence or in the case of God, descendance. In both cases "if God exists" it would require Gods cooperation. None is guaranteed.
Evidence of a transcendent being may very well be possible however in the inexplicable phenomena found in nature ( fine tuning of the universe, incredibly complex biological systems and the information found in DNA, etc.) through an explanatory hypothesis. However this wont be evidence as proof as I've said. That would take cooperation. In the mean time....it mostly boils down to a testament to who the person is through their world view and life philosophy.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
The fundamental problem with "God proof" is that the definition of God places it outside the realm of all that exists as we know it. A realm that includes all human experience, observation, cognition, and intellect. So we humans have no means of grasping or comprehending anything regarding the nature of or existence of "God". As the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is, 'God' by definition transcends "all that is". While we do not. So we have no means of ascertaining to verify or negate that transcendent condition.

So asking for such is a waste of time, and is logically an incoherent question. Evidence, knowledge, proof, all of these are quite literally 'out of the question'. And that leaves us in the realm of faith and personal functionality, as opposed to evidence, knowledge, and proof. Like it or not, that's the only methodology left to us regarding the concept and question of "God".

It's not dissimilar to the idea of infinity. As an idea about reality, infinity exists. But does it exist as an aspect of reality unto itself? We don't know. Because we humans are not capable of perceiving or experiencing infinity. We can't observe or measure it. We can't know if it exists as anything but an intellectual ideal. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But we can still USE IT as an ideal. Just as we can still use God as an ideal, whether God or infinity are an actual state, or not. Like infinity, the God-ideal becomes an actuality when we choose to make it one.
 
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MyM

MyM

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
The fundamental problem with "God proof" is that the definition of God places it outside the realm of all that exists as we know it. A realm that includes all human experience, observation, cognition, and intellect. So we humans have no means of grasping or comprehending anything regarding the nature of or existence of "God". As the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is, it by definition transcends "all that is". While we do not. So we have no means of ascertaining to verify or negate that transcendent state.

It's not dissimilar to the idea of infinity. As an idea about reality, infinity exists. But does it exist as an aspect of reality unto itself? We don't know. Because we humans are not capable of perceiving or experiencing infinity, we can't know that if it exists as anything but an intellectual ideal. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
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That is where you are wrong. Mankind does have the capability of understanding what their Creator wants from them. Do you think that your Creator would not send down a guideline to follow and to just let you wonder aimlessly without guidance? That would be silly and Allah is not silly.

Your "belief" is what? To float in the universe? :)
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
MyM said:
That is where you are wrong. Mankind does have the capability of understanding what their Creator wants from them. Do you think that your Creator would not send down a guideline to follow and to just let you wonder aimlessly without guidance? That would be silly and Allah is not silly.

Your "belief" is what? To float in the universe? :)
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So you know what pyrrhonian skepticism is?
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
MyM said:
That is where you are wrong. Mankind does have the capability of understanding what their Creator wants from them. Do you think that your Creator would not send down a guideline to follow and to just let you wonder aimlessly without guidance? That would be silly and Allah is not silly.

Your "belief" is what? To float in the universe? :)
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What we think isn't really the issue. The issue is what we can and cannot know to be so. We can still think whatever we like, and believe whatever we like, but if we pretend we know what we can't really know, then we become dishonest, and willfully ignorant, and that opens the door to all sorts of insanity.
 
K

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
PureX said:
So what? Why is 'more people believing' even relevant?
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Because it is better for most people to believe the truth than for them to believe a lie
PureX said:
If belief without knowledge were the relevant criteria, anyone can believe anything they want to, now. If knowledge is the important criteria, we can't have it. Plain and simple. So what we're talking about is faith, because that's all that's left to us, if we're being honest with ourselves about it.
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People will put more faith in a voice from the sky claiming to be the voice of God than they would some guy with no credibility standing on a street corner claiming to speak for God.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
setarcos said:
Um...how are you defining your singularity? They do exist. Scientists have been able to corollate some singularities with observable reality, as in Black Holes for instance.
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You are wandering into the realm of 'pseudoscience', now. There is no "observable reality" in a black hole. There is only the theoretical reality of a black hole as extrapolated from the conditions outside and around it. Also, a "singularity" is not a thing, it's an idea. Like "infinity". An idea we are very loosely applying to a very profound mystery.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Kfox said:
Because it is better for most people to believe the truth than for them to believe a lie
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But we have already established that in this instance (God-proof) there is no way to know. So that criteria is irrelevant.
Kfox said:
People will put more faith in a voice from the sky claiming to be the voice of God than they would some guy with no credibility standing on a street corner claiming to speak for God.
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Faith requires no evidence or proof. The result of engaging in it will provide it's own justification.
 
K

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
PureX said:
But we have already established that in this instance (God-proof) there is no way to know. So that criteria is irrelevant.
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No; that has not been established. You see to know simply means to be convinced beyond any shadow of doubt; it doesn't not mean yuo have 100% proof, or that you are even right.
Example; If you asked me, I will tell you I know my age, who my birth parents are, the city I was born in, and exactly how old I am. I even have a birth certificate to confirm all of this. Now for ME that is enough evidence for me to say I know. However suppose I was actually adopted by the people I know to be my parents, and I was born in another country on a different day and the fake birth certificate is all a part of the conspiracy to keep all of this information away from me? If such information came out I would admit I was wrong however until such information comes to light, I will continue to know my age, when I was born, and who my parents are. Does this make sense to you?
I know theists who are as certain of their God as I am of my age, an birth information. IT doesn't mean they are right, it just means they are certain beyond any shadow of doubt. SO God-proof is not necessary to know God exists; all you need is conviction beyond any shadow of doubt.
Definition of know | Dictionary.com
PureX said:
Faith requires no evidence or proof.
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Perhaps not for you, but there are plenty of people who require some type of evidence in order to have faith.
 
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