If God existed would there be proof?

[CG Didymus]

That is what Lewis always says but that does not really help people who are suffering in this life, even if they believe in the next life. Moreover, we are told hardly anything about the next life, only that there will be joy and gladness, but what does that mean?

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

Imo, the knowledge should not have been with God alone, if God expected us to endure so much suffering in this world, but as we both know, suffering is not evenly distributed, which is another problem as I see it. There is no explanation as to why some people suffer so much more than others but we are supposed to be grateful for our suffering because it is supposed to make us more spiritual. If that's really true I should be really spiritual by now, but I do not feel very spiritual. .

I best get off my high horse before I say anything more.

Was religion and God invented by those that were in high places, and didn't suffer much, to get people in low places, that did suffer much, to get them to be happy and joyful knowing that an invisible God was going to reward them later? He has promised eternal life. He promised to take vengeance against evil people that hurt them. He promised new bodies that could run and not get weary. To some he promised lots of virgins. To others, if they were good, offered them a better reincarnated life.

Lots and lots of things just to get people to do good and be happy no matter how difficult things got. Plus, he told them some of those things he caused... just to test them to get them to grow even more spiritual. Except some of those tests break people.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's true, and that is what I keep telling the atheists.

Brian 2's evidence is different than yours and proves something different than what yours proves. So, what does that prove? One or both of you are wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

“What can I do, today, to alleviate the suffering of others?”

And which religion does that the best?

 

[CG Didymus]

The bible contains claims, evidence would be what supports those claims. Since this comes up a ot I'll give an example.

Jesus body disappearing from its tomb is a claim, this is not a significant fact to me, since it is not that extraordinary a claim. However the claim it was because he was resurrected from the dead, is a very extraordinary claim, so whilst I'd be happy to accept the first claim prima facie, the second one would require a very high degree of objective evidence before I would accept it. The first claim would not be sufficient to support the second, if were there no credible explanation for it's disappearance.

The NT claims that there were eyewitnesses. And it tells the stories how Jesus appeared to them and showed that he was alive. So, a person can believe those stories and believe Jesus came back to life. And I believe that is what the gospel stories are saying, Jesus came back to life. But just because the gospel stories say Jesus came back to life, can we believe and trust them?

Ironically, Baha'is say "no". They say those stories are not literally true. Jesus did not come back to life. Those stories are fictional. They are symbolic stories meant to be taken metaphorically. So, we have one religion taking away the "proof" and "evidence" used by another religion. The eyewitness stories never really happened.

 

[CG Didymus]

The corollary to this, then, is that if God cannot be proven, then - as far as we're able to determine - God is unnecessary.

Is God necessary for us to have a world that is full of pain and death? A world where all creatures have to compete for limited resources? Since some religions say there is an all-knowing, all-loving, just God, they have to come up with explanations why the world is like it is. Considering that, supposedly, their loving God is the one that created it.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it depends on the God you are referring to. If (for example) the God described in the Bible existed, I believe there would be proof because according to the bible God wants us to know him.

And again, ironically, Baha'is don't seem to believe those Bible stories really happened. If some guy claiming to be a prophet came into my town and said "repent, or God's going to send fire from the sky." And then it happened. I'd believe him next time and say, "Okay, your God is real. Can you get him to stop killing evil, sinning people? Pretty soon, there will be no one left."

 

[muhammad_isa]

Since some religions say there is an all-knowing, all-loving, just God, they have to come up with explanations why the world is like it is..

That is well-known.
All one has to do is study the history of the human race.

Of course, one could ask why G-d made such imperfect creatures?
The person asking is in effect asking why they are themselves, imperfect.
I suggest the answer is within.

 

[blü 2]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

The same old problem still blocks the threshold ─ what real thing, what not-imaginary thing, what thing with objective existence, is intended to be denoted by the word 'God'?

Proof of what, exactly?

And if we find a real suspect, what objective test will tell us whether it's God or not?

 

[RestlessSoul]

And which religion does that the best?

What religion was the Good Samaritan?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand, i felt that it was splitting hairs or not relevant to the OP, but my point was evidence becomes proof once it's established that it truly points to what you are trying to prove.

Depends on the nature of the evidence.

Inductive reasoning can never reach the level of "proof," regardless of how much evidence you have.

 

[Trailblazer]

A world with death had to be because God knew that humans would sin and so would need to die.

If humans had not sinned humans would still need to die so more humans could be born. Otherwise the world would have been overpopulated a long time ago.

And yes those left behind grieve but God said that He would dry all our tears.

I know someone who is still crying since his daughter suddenly died and he is a Christian, although he told me he doesn't know what he believes anymore.

 

[Trailblazer]

To take your points in order:

• Depends on whether this god wanted us to be sure of its existence or not. A god might exist that simply didn't care about humanity at all, or actively wanted to hide itself.
  
• No.
• Yes.

This is exactly why you get agnostic atheists because, if there is no "proof" or actual evidence, then despite the fact that it's still possible that a god (or gods) exists, why would I care or take the possibility seriously? There would be no reason to believe that a god existed, because it could only ever be a guess. Endless things might possibly be true and there be no evidence for them (or no evidence available to us now), so why would anybody just arbitrarily decide to believe any of them?

This is the best answer I have received so you get the Best Answer rating and also the Most Logical Answer rating.

 

[firedragon]

It's not irrelevant, it's a direct problem with one of your stated axioms.

One of? Please state the problem clearly.

Thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lets see if one could take a completely independent stance on your OP.

IF God exists, there would definitely be proof. There is no question about it.

Why would there have to be proof? As I said in my OP it is my premise that God would have to provide the proof, and hypothetically speaking, if God chose NOT to provide proof, for whatever reason, there would NOT be no proof.

If God does not exist, there has to be proof that God does not exist. There is no question about it.

How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is God necessary for us to have a world that is full of pain and death?

I've heard theists argue that any world would require God. Personally, my take on the issue is like that of Laplace:

Napoleon: You have written this huge book on the system of the world without once mentioning the author of the universe.
Laplace: Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis.

Apparently, @Trailblazer agrees with Laplace and me.

A world where all creatures have to compete for limited resources? Since some religions say there is an all-knowing, all-loving, just God, they have to come up with explanations why the world is like it is. Considering that, supposedly, their loving God is the one that created it.

Sure - and this speaks to a problem with a lot of apologetics: some people like to argue for a "generic" God that nobody actually believes in. The specific Gods that people actually believe in all have their own specific quirks that have specific implications (e.g. being "all-loving") that may or may not be reconcilable with the state of things around us.

 

[firedragon]

So, if someone hits your toe with a hammer, you shouldn't ask "why?

Strawman.

I said, if something exists, the question "why does it exists" is irrelevant to its existence.

 

[Sheldon]

CG Didymus said: ↑
Since some religions say there is an all-knowing, all-loving, just God, they have to come up with explanations why the world is like it is..

That is well-known.
All one has to do is study the history of the human race.

Of course, one could ask why G-d made such imperfect creatures?
The person asking is in effect asking why they are themselves, imperfect.
I suggest the answer is within.

That doesn't explain suffering that has nothing to do with human actions. Humans only evolved 200k years ago, think of all the diseases and suffering and predation that occurred in hundreds of millions of years before any human existed.

 

[firedragon]

Why would there have to be proof? As I said in my OP it is my premise that God would have to provide the proof, and hypothetically speaking, if God chose NOT to provide proof, for whatever reason, there would NOT be no proof.

I dont feel in any way that "God has to provide proof" because I cant think for God. But if God exists, there has to be proof. If you have understood that proof or discovered that proof or not is a different matter.

How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

It is impossible.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why did you say no to evidence?

This hypothetical is about proof, not evidence.
Anyone can say they have evidence but it is only evidence to them. Proof is true for everyone because it can be proven as a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Proof of what, exactly?

And if we find a real suspect, what objective test will tell us whether it's God or not?

Those are good questions but those were not the questions I was asking in the OP. I was assuming that there 'could be' some kind of universal proof of God if God wanted it that way.

The basic question I had was: Could a God exist and not provide proof of His existence?