If God existed would there be proof?

[Sheldon]

How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

Did someone disprove all the thousands of deities humans have created that you don't believe exist? Any chance you could forward a pdf of that?

 

[Trailblazer]

You said this would not involve evidence?

My OP does not involve evidence but as usual the thread went off track, so I was just answering a question posed to me:

lukethethird said: If God existed would there be proof?
Why, isn't faith cuttin' it for ya?

Trailblazer said: I don't need faith because I have evidence which constitutes proof for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

The bible contains claims, evidence would be what supports those claims.

That is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did someone disprove all the thousands of deities humans have created that you don't believe exist? Any chance you could forward a pdf of that?

No, beliefs about deities cannot be disproved.
That is why I asked: How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

 

[Sheldon]

No, beliefs about deities cannot be disproved.
That is why I asked: How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

Which deity?

 

[Trailblazer]

Something occurs to me on this:

If God were necessary - for the existence of either the universe as a whole or something in the universe - and we were able to confirm that this was so, this would be proof of God.

I agree, because God would have to exist in order to be necessary for the existence of either the universe as a whole or something in the universe.

The corollary to this, then, is that if God cannot be proven, then - as far as we're able to determine - God is unnecessary.

I disagree. Just because God cannot be proven that does not mean that God is not necessary for the existence of either the universe as a whole or something in the universe. If that is the reality it is the reality. Proof does not determine what reality is. Proof is just what people want in order to know what reality is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..think of all the diseases and suffering and predation that occurred in hundreds of millions of years before any human existed.

Why did G-d make other creatures that appear to be so cruel, for example?
I suppose it is something to do with ecology and balance of populations.
..and G-d knows best.

However, the evil of mankind is far greater. Ask David Attenborough.

 

[Trailblazer]

God not proving himself would mean he is not God.

Can you explain why?

 

[Sheldon]

Why did G-d make other creatures that appear to be so cruel, for example? I suppose it is something to do with ecology and balance of populations.

That doesn't make sense if a deity is omnipotent and omniscient, since it need not be limited in any way as to what it creates.

However, the evil of mankind is far greater. Ask David Attenborough.

Evil is a subjective perception, but since humans are evolved apes, and would have very limited choices in comparison to the concept of a deity with limitless intelligence and power, then it makes no rational sense to suggest humans are more culpable for their actions than that deity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree, because God would have to exist in order to be necessary for the existence of either the universe as a whole or something in the universe.

Right.

I disagree. Just because God cannot be proven that does not mean that God is not necessary for the existence of either the universe as a whole or something in the universe.

It would mean that if God were necessary, it would be for reasons unknown to humanity.

If we could establish the premises as true, then this would be a proof of God:

1. God is necessary for X to exist.
2. X exists.
3. Therefore, God exists.

If there are no proofs of God, then there's no X that this argument can be shown true for.

If that is the reality it is the reality. Proof does not determine what reality is. Proof is just what people want in order to know what reality is.

Note the key phrase from my last post: as far as we're able to determine.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

Happy New Year. Hope you stay safe and well.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it depends on the God you are referring to. If (for example) the God described in the Bible existed, I believe there would be proof because according to the bible God wants us to know him.

I thing there would be evidence but not absolute proof, for the Bible says that God wants our faith, which means there will never be absolute proof.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

We must first believe that it is possible for God to exist, and that requires faith since no man has ever seen God. God wants us to have faith and that explains why God does not provide absolute proof. I believe that God will reward those who earnestly seek Him with the evidence we need to believe, but God will not force us to accept the evidence. We all have free will to choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That doesn't make sense if a deity is omnipotent and omniscient, since it need not be limited in any way as to what it creates.

Any suggestions?
Perhaps you think that creatures shouldn't die? Would that work?

..it makes no rational sense to suggest humans are more culpable for their actions than that deity.

Ah yes .. it must be G-d's fault if we sin, because He created us.
..how childish

 

[Trailblazer]

Apparently this god does need followers, why else would he go to such extremes throughout history to gain followers?
If something exists then there is proof.

God goes to these extremes not because God needs any followers but rather because God wants us to believe He exists, for our own benefit. God has no needs because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining..

There is proof, but it is not proof to everyone.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

I have to come at the question another way: "if there is neither proof nor evidence for a thing, what reason would there be to suppose it true?"

I've never seen any evidence whatever for flying wallabies in Australia -- what reason could I have to think they might be there, flitting silently just behind me all the time and never letting me see them?

I've never seen any proof that there were people who could utter curses that would cause all of my animals to die -- so why would I assume the rather quaint old lady across the road is doing it?

 

[Trailblazer]

By what the Bible tells, God is the creator of this world. If He exists and is the creator, we should be able to see His creations. But, maybe that is only evidence, not a proof, maybe nothing is ever proof.

There could be proof if God wanted us to have proof since God is omnipotent, so we can deduce that there is a reason God does not provide proof. From reading the Bible the answer is obvious. God does not provide proof because God wants our faith, and with proof, faith would no longer be necessary.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Brian 2's evidence is different than yours and proves something different than what yours proves. So, what does that prove? One or both of you are wrong?

Yes, it shows that one or both of us are wrong.

 

[EtuMalku]

God goes to these extremes not because God needs any followers but rather because God wants us to believe He exists, for our own benefit. God has no needs because God is fully self-sufficient and self-sustaining..

There is proof, but it is not proof to everyone.

Wouldn't it be easier and far more efficient to just present his holiness to everyone in a way that all can experience objectively? Why play around? Just cut to the chase and avoid all the death, destruction, pain, suffering, and confusion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is God necessary for us to have a world that is full of pain and death? A world where all creatures have to compete for limited resources? Since some religions say there is an all-knowing, all-loving, just God, they have to come up with explanations why the world is like it is. Considering that, supposedly, their loving God is the one that created it.

God was necessary to have this world full of pain and death, because God created such a world.
I have no explanations why the world is like it is since I did not create this world, and I have my reservations as to whether God is all-loving and just.

 

[Trailblazer]

But if God exists, there has to be proof.

I think that there is proof, but not everyone recognizes the proof.