If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

[dust1n]

Tarasan and I don't agree on many things, but it seems to me he gave a pretty good answer.
1) God gave free will.
2) god said don't do bad things.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming god for your fault is just dumb.
5) I don't see any relation between free will and being mindless.

The problem is an Abrahamic one. If god is all knowing, then when he makes us, he knows exactly what his creation would do and develop because he can take in account all factors that have a role. If this is the case, one can not truly act out in their own will, because god used his will to create us to do everything he knew we would do. If some people go to hell, then god is no longer unloving because he knew what he created would go to hell.

 

[mickiel]

The will of humanity is not free, its controlled by he who made us. His way of hiding himself for now, gives the illusion of freedom of will, freedom of destiny, freedom of belief, freedom of responsibility in our consciousness. In example; imagine a locked room of prisioners, they are confined and cannot go anywhere. They are imprisioned and in a limited controlled space. Well now they are free to think as they wish, comtemplate anything in their minds, imagine anything, that much they are free to do. But they are confined, cannot go beyond the confinement. Their will is meaningless, and not really free.

THIS is the lockhold God has on all of humanity. We are confined yet free to think. We have been put on earth and it is our prision. Oh men have gone to the Moon, we can create and expand our knowledge, but we are still limited in what we can do, because we are confined by God. We can only go so far, think so far, and then we must one day see, that we are doing these things, while being confined!

Peace.

 

[.lava]

The problem is an Abrahamic one. If god is all knowing, then when he makes us, he knows exactly what his creation would do and develop because he can take in account all factors that have a role. If this is the case, one can not truly act out in their own will, because god used his will to create us to do everything he knew we would do. If some people go to hell, then god is no longer unloving because he knew what he created would go to hell.

hmm ... we are in time, God is not. for you, it is easy to chose to see the end of a movie for example. if you wish you can rewind to see the begining of it. so you are able to know what's there in the end of a movie though you don't see what happens before. or you can rewatch it and you could even know every act and incident in that movie. all up to you. because it is in your power, under your hand. same goes with God when it comes to our life times. just like it is not you who decides which character in the movie ends up how, though you know exactly what happens to them and what they would do, God would not make people to do this or that. God does not create people who belongs to hell from birth. just because God is out of time therefor it could see every single point of time from outside of it, does not mean we are not responsible of what we do

.

 

[the_naturalist]

Well! Of all the stupid posts I have ever encountered, the OP has to be right up there.

1) God gave us free will - therefore, we can choose to do right or wrong.
2) If you choose to do wrong, you are punished.

What is the confusion about? Seems plenty straight forward to me.

(((flying teapot, your answer is very straightfoward as you stated ... but you forgot to state naive .... here is scenario no. 1 ... what do i do if i do not know what is right or wrong ... if i must get my answers from the bible, forget about it ... the bible is like quantum physics, confusing ... the bible has contradictions on top of contradictions ... like quantum physics, the best you can do is guess what you are observing ... the naturalist)))

 

[the_naturalist]

(((flying teapot, your answer is very straightfoward as you stated ... but you forgot to state naive .... here is scenario no. 1 ... what do i do if i do not know what is right or wrong ... if i must get my answers from the bible, forget about it ... the bible is like quantum physics, confusing ... the bible has contradictions on top of contradictions ... like quantum physics, the best you can do is guess what you are observing ... the naturalist)))

 

[the_naturalist]

awesome do you have a point underneath the sarcasm, or shall we all behave like were five?

do you blame society for enforcing laws you didnt agree to or yourself?

I mean so long as you know the rules u are responsible for what you do.

so have a proper response?

sorry, i was not refering to you about my comments on critical thinking

 

[Hawkins]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

Forget about God for awhile, as long as you have a free-will and if you break the laws you'll be sent to jail. Simple as that.

 

[Twig pentagram]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

Good question.

 

[Badran]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

I can't see what needs to be answered here. God gave us free will to choose, so we are responsible for our choices, and we'd be judged depending on which ones we made.

The real question that rises from this, is something like dust1n said, why then did god create us, while already knowing that some of us would choose to do bad, which means those would go to hell? Why did he create us although he knows that some will go to hell because of their wrong choices?

This question however is unanswered for me, because it falls under the category of God's motivations and/or reasons for creating us.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

The problem is an Abrahamic one. If god is all knowing, then when he makes us, he knows exactly what his creation would do and develop because he can take in account all factors that have a role. If this is the case, one can not truly act out in their own will, because god used his will to create us to do everything he knew we would do. If some people go to hell, then god is no longer unloving because he knew what he created would go to hell.

Well, that is a totally different and interesting issue than the OP. But I think you meant god is no longer loving because he knew what he created would go to hell.
Well, yes. I have argued pretty much the same thing in another thread entitled "Is god absent minded or plain evil?" and never got a convincing answer myself.
I do not think god is either just or caring or loving. God is just a construct of the human mind to answer the "death" question.

I do not believe we have free will. I think our thoughts at any given point are the result of impulses firing in our brain. However, these impulses are the result of biological phenomena.
For example, if I am hungry, my stomach sends a message to my brain to feed it( in simplistic terms) and the brain fires some neurons in order to make me get off my behind and go make something to eat. But I sometimes am too lazy to get up and make some thing to eat. So this seems like free will to me, when I do two different things in the same situation. I think that our free will is nothing but the weighted average of all the neurons firing in our brain and the winner at any point decides the action we take. That is, say there is a neuron for laziness and there is a neuron for hunger. At any point, if these two fire in my brain, the one with more power gets to decide the action I take when I am hungry. I think we do have a free will which is unpredictable as of now and depends on a lot of factors. I am in fact hungry as I write this, but my "writing this " neuron is clearly the winner among my "lazy" neuron, my "hunger" neuron and my "writing this" neuron. I think we will eventually get to the point when all our actions can be predicted. In fact, scientists claim that by 2049 they will have a super computer exceeding the computing power of the brain.

My proposal was vindicated (kinda) when a fellow member posted this article from the wall street journal a few months later: Get Out of Your Own Way - WSJ.com

 

[nameless]

hi
if you sincerely believe you are "given", then you know you are not the real owner. if you know you are not the real owner of something then you should return it to the one who trully owns it. if you wish to return it to its original owner then you are not damned

.

if it is like that, why the 'real owner' giving those? for what purpose the 'real owner' playing this useless game?
and is it a big sin, if gift is not returned? terrible justice it is !!!
kindly dont call it gift or 'free-will'

 

[nameless]

Well! Of all the stupid posts I have ever encountered, the OP has to be right up there.

1) God gave us free will - therefore, we can choose to do right or wrong.
2) If you choose to do wrong, you are punished.

What is the confusion about? Seems plenty straight forward to me.

and what are those wrong ones? denial of god?

 

[dust1n]

Well, that is a totally different and interesting issue than the OP. But I think you meant god is no longer loving because he knew what he created would go to hell.
Well, yes. I have argued pretty much the same thing in another thread entitled "Is god absent minded or plain evil?" and never got a convincing answer myself.
I do not think god is either just or caring or loving. God is just a construct of the human mind to answer the "death" question.

I suppose it is a different question overall, but it mine as well got down to logical contradiction. Hopefully, I won't have to refute anyone in a conversation I've had way too many times.

I do not believe we have free will. I think our thoughts at any given point are the result of impulses firing in our brain. However, these impulses are the result of biological phenomena.
For example, if I am hungry, my stomach sends a message to my brain to feed it( in simplistic terms) and the brain fires some neurons in order to make me get off my behind and go make something to eat. But I sometimes am too lazy to get up and make some thing to eat. So this seems like free will to me, when I do two different things in the same situation. I think that our free will is nothing but the weighted average of all the neurons firing in our brain and the winner at any point decides the action we take. That is, say there is a neuron for laziness and there is a neuron for hunger. At any point, if these two fire in my brain, the one with more power gets to decide the action I take when I am hungry. I think we do have a free will which is unpredictable as of now and depends on a lot of factors. I am in fact hungry as I write this, but my "writing this " neuron is clearly the winner among my "lazy" neuron, my "hunger" neuron and my "writing this" neuron. I think we will eventually get to the point when all our actions can be predicted. In fact, scientists claim that by 2049 they will have a super computer exceeding the computing power of the brain.

My proposal was vindicated (kinda) when a fellow member posted this article from the wall street journal a few months later: Get Out of Your Own Way - WSJ.com

My understanding of the situation runs somewhere along these lines.

 

[nameless]

Tarasan and I don't agree on many things, but it seems to me he gave a pretty good answer.
1) God gave free will.
2) god said don't do bad things.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming god for your fault is just dumb.
5) I don't see any relation between free will and being mindless.

a criminal offers almost same justice and 'free-will'

1) Criminal gave free will , either should allow him to steal or he will shoot you.
2) Criminal said don't do bad things, bad thing is not allowing him to steal.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming criminal for your fault is just dumb. :bonk:

 

[Thesavorofpan]

If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

We created for the sole purpose of loving God out of our own choices and just like everything you do in life there is an effect.

 

[Badran]

a criminal offers almost same justice and 'free-will'

1) Criminal gave free will, either should allow him to steal or he will shoot you.
2) Criminal said don't do bad things, bad thing is not allowing him to steal.
3) if you choose to do bad things, its your fault.
4) blaming criminal for your fault is just dumb.

Well, on the surface that might be similar situation. However, there are a couple of problems here. First, the requirements by the criminal are bad, and cause damage to the person faced with the choice if he chooses to abide by the criminal's request.

And, neither outcomes are good. One is just less horrible than the other, which is not the case in the heaven and hell situation.

Finally, of course it's not the guys fault, because once again the criminal is putting him in choosing between bad and worse, and he is not requesting or requiring anything he is entitled to.

if it is like that, why the 'real owner' giving those? for what purpose the 'real owner' playing this useless game?
and is it a big sin, if gift is not returned? terrible justice it is !!!
kindly dont call it gift or 'free-will'

I just want to say that you're now asking about God's motives, and assuming that there is no way there might be an explanation as to why this is the way it is.

 

[nameless]

Well, on the surface that might be similar situation. However, there are a couple of problems here. First, the requirements by the criminal are bad, and cause damage to the person faced with the choice if he chooses to abide by the criminal's request.

check the requirements of the god, he wants everyone to become slave of his or should go to hell, extreme arrogance. Atleast the criminal is not demanding that, he needs only money.

And, neither outcomes are good. One is just less horrible than the other, which is not the case in the heaven and hell situation.

agreed, but why hell for those who denies to become slave? they deserve neither heaven nor hell, they should be left free. But the punishment from god is never-ending, any bigger crime than this?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

and what are those wrong ones? denial of god?

Hey, I'm not the one making up the rules, god is. Within this biblical construct, the answer seems pretty straightforward. Hence my belligerent first post.

 

[Badran]

check the requirements of the god, he wants everyone to become slave of his or should go to hell, extreme arrogance. Atleast the criminal is not demanding that, he needs only money.

I understand what you are saying, i know how this sounds. But i don't look at it exactly that way. I mean if there is a god, with such attributes, not only do i not mind worshiping and respecting and loving him, i actually like to do it. I mean it's not slavery like we are doing things he orders as service to him, or to entertain him, it's different.

agreed, but why hell for those who abide to become slave? they deserve neither heaven nor hell, they should be left free. But the punishment from god is never-ending.

I'm not sure i understand what you're saying here, if you could elaborate more i'd appreciate it.

 

[Badran]

Hey, I'm not the one making up the rules, god is. Within this biblical construct, the answer seems pretty straightforward. Hence my belligerent first post.

Yeah, i agree. According to the wording of the OP, the answer is pretty obvious.