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If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

DarkSun

:eltiT
well like I said before in his all knowingness maybe he believe that ultiamtely the suffering it worth the price, as I said before you cannt say that these are mutually exclusive because he may very well believe that the suffering is worth the outcome, what outcome that is? how can i say? the important thing to take away from this is that ultiamtely you cannot accuse someone of not being consistant when you admittedly dont know what he knows.

The suffering cannot be worth any outcome, no matter what it is. People are starving for apparently no reason, people are infected with viruses by random infections, people are tortured to death dying in agony. People lie to each other. People steal. People are constantly disrespectful. Despite all of its beauty, the reality is that this world is suffering, and I simply cannot understand how any God that has some special love for humans in particular could allow this.

yes you should sin affects us spiritually as well as finitely, remeber sins is not just a crime, its like dirt that has gotten onto a peice of cloth, it doesnt just leave with time or last for an instant.

I'm guessing you're defining 'sin' as anything which goes against the teachings of the Christian God? So do Buddhists, Hindus, UUs, Taoists, Deists, Pantheists and Polytheists all go to hell for worshipping false idols? What about lawyers and politicians? Do they go to hell for lying? What about homosexuals and atheists? Do they go to hell for being who they are? How many people have their soul tainted, do you think? Because from where I'm standing, if a 'sin' is enough to send someone to Hell, then a whole lot of people are gonna burn. That hardly seems fair.
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

Consider the alternative to free will. We would be forced to act in a certain way. What kind of life would that be? The ability to choose right or wrong is a precious gift from a loving Creator. Just as a loving father wants a child to love, respect, and obey him, so our Creator wants us to love, respect, and obey him from our hearts. (1 John 5:3)
While God allows us to choose our course of action, he tells us the outcomes for a good course and a bad one. Still, he allows us to make our choices. As the Creator, he certainly can exercise authority over his creation. (Revelation 4:11) And while God allows great freedom for his creatures, that freedom is not abolute. Life today is a misery for millions because of the actions of other humans. God has rightly given direction to avoid harming ourselves and others. No one would consider a parent fit who allowed his young children to do anything and everything they wanted.
Those who choose to ignore God and his right to rule will suffer the inevitable consequences for this. (Galations 6:9) Those who choose to serve their lifegiver will continue living, even forever (John 17:3)
 

tarasan

Well-Known Member
The suffering cannot be worth any outcome, no matter what it is. People are starving for apparently no reason, people are infected with viruses by random infections, people are tortured to death dying in agony. People lie to each other. People steal. People are constantly disrespectful. Despite all of its beauty, the reality is that this world is suffering, and I simply cannot understand how any God that has some special love for humans in particular could allow this.
ok... this states pretty much nothing....

merely stating look at all the evil "this cannot be worth anything" doesnt really say anything it only says that in your opinion there isnt anything, however like I said you dont know what the future will hold or what on omniscient God see therefore honestly no one can know.... unless you can somehow prove you can...



I'm guessing you're defining 'sin' as anything which goes against the teachings of the Christian God? So do Buddhists, Hindus, UUs, Taoists, Deists, Pantheists and Polytheists all go to hell for worshipping false idols? What about lawyers and politicians? Do they go to hell for lying? What about homosexuals and atheists? Do they go to hell for being who they are? How many people have their soul tainted, do you think? Because from where I'm standing, if a 'sin' is enough to send someone to Hell, then a whole lot of people are gonna burn. That hardly seems fair.

sin is anything that goes against the natuer of God which is good. and no its not just these faith but also everyone in Christianity we are no better than anyone else we have just come to God and asked for help with our sin, and forgiveness. and how does it not seem fair it says in the bible they all have the same opertunity as me to turn away from their sin and be saved, if we are all given the same oppertunity how can that be considered unjust?
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
ok... this states pretty much nothing....

merely stating look at all the evil "this cannot be worth anything" doesnt really say anything it only says that in your opinion there isnt anything, however like I said you dont know what the future will hold or what on omniscient God see therefore honestly no one can know.... unless you can somehow prove you can...

I strongly disagree with the whole Consequentialist mentality tbh. Doing people wrong simply because you think the end-result is good, doesn't negate the fact that you've done people wrong. :sarcastic


sin is anything that goes against the natuer of God which is good. and no its not just these faith but also everyone in Christianity we are no better than anyone else we have just come to God and asked for help with our sin, and forgiveness. and how does it not seem fair it says in the bible they all have the same opertunity as me to turn away from their sin and be saved, if we are all given the same oppertunity how can that be considered unjust?

Because we're not all given the same oppurtunity. Children are going to be most likely to believe whatever their parents believe. Can you honestly say that if you were brought up in a Muslim home, you would still be a Christian? Also, there's another quote that comes to mind here. "People can do as they will, but not will as they will." So yes, we're all free to make our own choices, but we're not free to be able to make those choices. If people honestly look at reality a certain way, then no matter how hard they try, they could never voluntarily choose to look at reality differently. Now that you're a Christian, could you ever choose to become a Muslim in order to avoid the hell Allah has waiting for you? No? Simply put, people can't choose what to believe; they can't alter what they inherently think is true.

With that in mind, I also disagree that a 'sin' is the act of going against the nature of God, which is "good"... Because morality is subjective, the word "good" has no meaning unless you define what you mean by "good". What an African bushman thinks is right and wrong is going to be a whole lot different to what you or I believe.
 
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The suffering cannot be worth any outcome, no matter what it is. People are starving for apparently no reason, people are infected with viruses by random infections, people are tortured to death dying in agony. People lie to each other. People steal. People are constantly disrespectful. Despite all of its beauty, the reality is that this world is suffering, and I simply cannot understand how any God that has some special love for humans in particular could allow this.



I'm guessing you're defining 'sin' as anything which goes against the teachings of the Christian God? So do Buddhists, Hindus, UUs, Taoists, Deists, Pantheists and Polytheists all go to hell for worshipping false idols? What about lawyers and politicians? Do they go to hell for lying? What about homosexuals and atheists? Do they go to hell for being who they are? How many people have their soul tainted, do you think? Because from where I'm standing, if a 'sin' is enough to send someone to Hell, then a whole lot of people are gonna burn. That hardly seems fair.
Well said, truly the words of a sane and reasonable person
 

tarasan

Well-Known Member
I strongly disagree with the whole Consequentialist mentality tbh. Doing people wrong simply because you think the end-result is good, doesn't negate the fact that you've done people wrong. :sarcastic

God isnt doing hte wrong he is making our wrong into good while still letting us keep our free will, that however takes time and willing people and unfortunately experience.




Because we're not all given the same oppurtunity. Children are going to be most likely to believe whatever their parents believe. Can you honestly say that if you were brought up in a Muslim home, you would still be a Christian? Also, there's another quote that comes to mind here. "People can do as they will, but not will as they will." So yes, we're all free to make our own choices, but we're not free to be able to make those choices. If people honestly look at reality a certain way, then no matter how hard they try, they could never voluntarily choose to look at reality differently. Now that you're a Christian, could you ever choose to become a Muslim in order to avoid the hell Allah has waiting for you? No? Simply put, people can't choose what to believe; they can't alter what they inherently think is true.

With that in mind, I also disagree that a 'sin' is the act of going against the nature of God, which is "good"... Because morality is subjective, the word "good" has no meaning unless you define what you mean by "good". What an African bushman thinks is right and wrong is going to be a whole lot different to what you or I believe.

In Romans it says that if a person looks for God honestly then God will reviel himself to him, so yes everyone is able to search after God everyone is able to find him, and btw 85 percent of young people live the church, its thought by some to be a big disadvantage to be born into it.

so you thinks subjective wether pedophilia is wrong, or murder is wrong or rape is wrong, that they arnt really bad or evil, they are just given those names?
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
If god gave us free will, why are we damned if we chose wrongly, need answers !

Thank you

The naturalist

Free agency is a gift given us by our creator in which we have the right to decide how we will individually respond to the forces and influences around us. Although someone may force you to act a certain way, forcing you to go through the motions, no one can dictate how you think or the true nature of your character. It is in this that free agency manifests itself as the basis for judgment. Our choices indicate our character and that determines our final station in the eternities.

As for being damned, most people define this as some sort of extreme eternal punishment wherein physical pain and suffering are constant and everlasting in some place where those being punished will not bother the senses of the "good people", sort of an "out of sight - out of mind" concept but that leaves God as being some sort of sadistic maniac, I don't buy it, it just does not make any sense.

I see being damned as having your forward progression halted forever because your character warrants that you are not worthy for greater glory but that does not mean where you are halted is not a place better than where we are presently. The concept of Heaven and Hell being one place or the other also diminishes God, there has to be varying degrees of glory that are fashioned to give a person all that they warrant while denying them levels that they, by their actions, chose not to aspire to. The concept of justice could not stand any other way.

I have said it many times and in various forums that the agony equated with fire and brimstone is of mental origin. A person can learn to (or be forced to) live with physical pain and agony but doing so can serve no real purpose.
Mental anguish, on the other hand has no limit to its intensity or duration and is self inflicted, you can regret something forever and that regret can manifest itself physically. Failing to measure up to the comparatively easy standards required by God to receive all that He has to offer will cause mental anguish into extremes we cannot even begin to imagine and conversely the potential for joy is also beyond our ability to comprehend. The key is that WE decide where we will end up by our actions and not our words.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
God isnt doing hte wrong he is making our wrong into good while still letting us keep our free will, that however takes time and willing people and unfortunately experience.

But this makes no sense. He can't force the end result of all of our bad choices to be a good one, or then He would somehow be interfering with Free Will. It would be impossible to have a master plan for the world, without somehow intervening with the world and directing its future. There is no way in which God could orchestrate a good future without having interfered with Free Will somewhere along the line.


In Romans it says that if a person looks for God honestly then God will reviel himself to him, so yes everyone is able to search after God everyone is able to find him, and btw 85 percent of young people live the church, its thought by some to be a big disadvantage to be born into it.

The Aztecs had never heard of God until missionaries from Spain destroyed their entire culture in the 1600s and gave them the ultimatum: "repent for your sins so we can stop torturing you, and you may die in peace". The indigenous population of Australia had never heard of God until missionaries from around England kidnapped them from their families, forced them to forgo their own devilish culture and re-educated them into a proper, white, Christian lifestyle. The Native-Americans, the Africans, the Aryan race, none of these people had ever heard about Christianity until the missionaries came along. There are still bushmen in Africa who haven't ever seen a white man, let alone a missionary.

With this in mind, I truly do find it hard to agree with the book of Romans in this regard. If people truly could experience and perceive the true nature of God irrespective of their upbringing, then you would think at least one of the indigenous races of the world would have realised the error of their ways before missionaries came along and corrected them for being "wrong".

But I do agree with Romans when it says this:

Rom 2: 9-16
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)​
People should be judged based on what they do, not on what they believe. And even then, an eternal hell is an unjust punishment. This still holds true even if you believe in a metaphorical hell. As I said, at some point in eternity, the punishment given would have to exceed the crime carried out, and it would be infinitely ubjust and unmerciful to continue to torment those people.

so you thinks subjective wether pedophilia is wrong, or murder is wrong or rape is wrong, that they arnt really bad or evil, they are just given those names?

I don't see how this is so hard to understand... :eek:

Yes, I do believe that right and wrong are subjective. The pedophiliac might not believe he's wrong at all, he might think he's in love. The rapist might not think there's anything wrong with what he's doing either. And that's their opinion, their morality coming to play, but it most definitely isn't mine. Personally, I think the act of rape is disgusting, repugnant, vile, and I find it incredibly hard to understand how another human being could put someone through that kind of life-long pain. But that's my opinion. That's my morality coming to play.

The fact that ethical frameworks can differ between people is proof that morality is subjective, and not absolute. Until you can show me how people don't have differing opinions regarding right and wrong, then I'm going to stick with my views. Sorry. :eek:
 
Then choose rightly. Submit your free will to G-d's will. No? Then you chose wrongly not to. You wanna be saved or damned? Be honest. G-d gave us True Guidance. The choice is yours to follow G-d or hell. Wanna be freed from or free to sin? What do we want? What is our intention? Right choice = Good outcome. Wrong choice = Bad outcome. The logic is very simple. Satan only tempts you if you just want your free will. For a time. It's only our fault. Pure and simple. Submit in Islam if you want true Heaven.

Free will is not a false (Christian) idea of sins. We're not free or saved until we submit our self/free will to G-d. Such as the first commandment which most Christians cannot follow. That is the Truth.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
But ELD, there's too many choices on how to reach God. What if I search them all and then my intellect and heart tell me none are correct, what is someone supposed to do?

God should have been clearer if there's only one choice.
 

RJ50

Active Member
Surely if a deity actually exists the so and so should stop playing silly beggars, and reveal itself in such a way there is no doubt of who and what it is.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Surely if a deity actually exists the so and so should stop playing silly beggars, and reveal itself in such a way there is no doubt of who and what it is.

I agree.

Sin is opposing god's will
Free will is the ability to oppose god's will
God gave us the ability to oppose his will, and condems us if we do

And god has never clearly communicated his will (or even unequivacally demonstrated his own existance).

If all true, god is not worthy of worship! He needs to step it up a few thousand nothes.
 
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